Mycenaean/Trojan swordsmen?

[Guy]

I'd seen it the other way round, he'd pretty conclusively torpedoed your argument!

Facts? Why let them stand in the way of a good argu... err ... debate!

Also agreed, you only learn by asking (and in my case) learning to try and answer questions.

Guy

[lowtardog]

Dare you to mention Numidians when meaning Nubians or vice versa

[Axebreaker]

'd seen it the other way round, he'd pretty conclusively torpedoed your argument!

If you mean by the view held by most historians then..... yes. Like I said,there is still room for discussion and this I already mentioned.

Facts? Why let them stand in the way of a good argu... err ... debate!

I never based this discussion on facts as there really isn't anything to make good comparisons with other then items that are open to interpretation.This isn't a topic on kinds of swords or armor for example where one could argue facts as we have some actual items to base them on or at least some written accounts other then myths.This is mostly looking at pictures and saying so what do you think?

Also agreed, you only learn by asking

I agree completely,but it's more fun for both parties if you do it in a discussion format then a Q and A.

[aecurtis]

I am so forgetful. We have documentary proof that shields were only for catching javelins. Then they would be discarded and the real killing done with only a sword:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4_YFHyAOMU

[hdan]

What about shieldbearers? Or are those out of favor with the court these days?

If the soldiers depicted are the "non shield" bearers, and their trusty heavy shield toting sidekicks didn't make it into the picture, does that solve any problems?

[Axebreaker]

I am so forgetful. We have documentary proof that shields were only for catching javelins. Then they would be discarded and the real killing done with only a sword:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4_YFHyAOMU

Hey, that was a pretty cool scene you have to admit,even if it was a Hollywood fight.This film is full of inaccuracies,but I enjoyed it nonetheless. Anyways,it's ok seeing an over the top Achilles fighting like a machine then Hannibal wielding two swords like a hyped up gladiator!

I was hoping for a bit more commentary then that,but perhaps your already bored of the subject.

Cheers
Christopher

[Guy]

What about shieldbearers? Or are those out of favor with the court these days?

I've always though of them as squires or batmen. Probably more accurately this would be the driver of a chariot.
'Pass me the number two Javelin, Baldrick'
'Yes Mr Achilles!'
Quite common for a hero to need more than one shield in a battle.

I was hoping for a bit more commentary then that,but perhaps your already bored of the subject.

Not a case of being bored, just what else is there to say?

“And yet it still moves�

Guy

[Axebreaker]

Not a case of being bored, just what else is there to say?

Odd you say that,when you said be prepared to be torpedoed as if even you expected a response.

Well for starters,what's his opinion on the role of light infantry in this period?

[aecurtis]

Again, it's a rehash of a BA honors thesis:

http://www.australianarchaeologicalasso ... u/node/301

And the Osprey in no way makes credible arguments to support the claims of the thesis abstract.

Turning to "Troy", if you want a read that does a good job reconciling the literary and archaeological-artistic evidence for the period, have a look at the first section of Sage's "Warfare in Ancient Greece: A Sourcebook":

http://books.google.com/books?id=CsCAGN ... q=&f=false

Allen

[Guy]

Odd you say that,when you said be prepared to be torpedoed as if even you expected a response.

No sir, I used the past tense.

Turning to "Troy", if you want a read that does a good job reconciling the literary and archaeological-artistic evidence for the period, have a look at the first section of Sage's "Warfare in Ancient Greece: A Sourcebook"

Thanks for the links Allen.

Guy

[Axebreaker]

@aecurtis
Thanks for the links.

Christopher

[He Who Is Nameless]

OK first let me qualify, I am no expert. I totally agree with Allen that the Osprey series can contain duff information. Where I do know about stuff, I have seen an Osprey totally miss the point in my opinion.

But I got my hands on this Osprey to have a look and yea there are pictures. So yes there are pictures on frescos, seals and pottery of warriors fighting with swords and no shields.

Despite Allens ridicule, there is a seal of a warrior leaping over a shield and stabbing toward the neck of his enemy. Just as in the scene in Troy - perhaps the script writer had seen it?

So yes there is original evidence to see, the question becomes one of interpretation. To me a sword is the weapon of a hero. Its expensive to make and has no use other than for warfare. So I am inclined to think of these depictions, as champions fighting. But thats just my 2p.

Certainly there would be a need to fight in difficult terrain.

But thanks to Christopher for raising the question, I have now got a reference book for my forthcoming Trojan army.

[aecurtis]

Evidence that hoplite warfare was conducted more like modern mixed martial arts (MMA):





...rather than poncing about with armor and spears.

When it comes to spears, this Persian seal informs us that Xerxes was one bad mutha:



...taking down Leonidas by himself rather than giving him a massage:



Primary source images *must* be taken in context. When you start developing entire new troop types based on bits of odd evidence--well, that way lies DBM and their ilk.

Allen

[He Who Is Nameless]

Yes indeed very inventive, you sure know your Google-fu.

[Guy]

LOL! Marvelous! Xerxes massage attack!
I'll avoid the obvious Xerxes jokes!!!

Guy

[Axebreaker]

But thanks to Christopher for raising the question, I have now got a reference book for my forthcoming Trojan army.

They are a wonderful looking army when painted up.......I suppose that's why I started them! Glad to have you in the ranks!

[Darren Woodward]

Again, it's a rehash of a BA honors thesis:

http://www.australianarchaeologicalasso ... u/node/301

And the Osprey in no way makes credible arguments to support the claims of the thesis abstract.

Turning to "Troy", if you want a read that does a good job reconciling the literary and archaeological-artistic evidence for the period, have a look at the first section of Sage's "Warfare in Ancient Greece: A Sourcebook":

http://books.google.com/books?id=CsCAGN ... q=&f=false

Allen

Thanks for the links Allen. They're very interesting. d

[bravosoldier]

Curious. Why wouldn't a warrior carry a shield?

What shield do you mean? Coz a warrior has a shield. Look at the front of their body the steel one. That is a shield.

[colhodg]

On the whole mycenean swordsman thing:

The (disputed) historic research of one avowed wargamer might not count for much in academic circles but that shouldn't stop us from exploring the possibility - isn't that what wargaming is all about?

The entire pict list is founded on the basis of a few carved stones and what tacitus had to say, hardly conclusive proof but it's enjoyable to imagine them as something a little different?

Would they have been a hisorical likelyhood? Probably not to the extent that the author argues, it's his pet idea, but I can see there would have been an advantage to disrupting the largely static, early long speared blocks in some way in order that the chariots could have better effect. More likely this would be a role assigned to flanking regular light infantry than some elite band of shield breakers but the gaming posibility is an interesting one.

Load second torpedo?

[Atheling]

On the whole mycenean swordsman thing:

The (disputed) historic research of one avowed wargamer might not count for much in academic circles but that shouldn't stop us from exploring the possibility - isn't that what wargaming is all about?

The entire pict list is founded on the basis of a few carved stones and what tacitus had to say, hardly conclusive proof but it's enjoyable to imagine them as something a little different?

Would they have been a hisorical likelyhood? Probably not to the extent that the author argues, it's his pet idea, but I can see there would have been an advantage to disrupting the largely static, early long speared blocks in some way in order that the chariots could have better effect. More likely this would be a role assigned to flanking regular light infantry than some elite band of shield breakers but the gaming posibility is an interesting one.

Load second torpedo?

Glad you steered away from the IMP argument- I think I would have had a fit .

Darrell.