Kampfgruppe Normandy

[vonBerlichingen]

Any idea why one needs to log in to view this particular sub-forum?

[Axebreaker]

Andy is working on the forum at the moment I think and requires us to log back in.

Christopher

[vonBerlichingen]

Do you mean that he is working on this sub-forum? You don't seem to need to log in to most of the other sub-fora...

[Axebreaker]

The whole forum. I just had to log in to get on the off topic. Big time spam going on the forum as well right now.

Christopher

[Guy]

Not had any issues here with logging in...

Thanks Olivier for proving that 28mm isn't just Skirmish...

WS&S will have a review copy of Kampfgruppe Normandy, so check issue 55 for our review.

Guy

[SgtPerry]

No problem, Guy! I already subscribed for the new version of WS&S.

[Guy]

I'll hope to get you contributing some time as well Mon Ami!

Guy

[erwinrommel]

Well, I played my re-arranged game last night, so if anybody is interested in actual content over WHH release policy, pricing or the merits of scales etc, here are my first findings (with no particular WH axe to grind):

This was a small (called Platoon) game of 250 points per side, played on a 6x4. British Armoured Division vs SS Panzer Division. 7 AFVs vs 4. We started at 7.30 and it was over before 10.30, but we were slow, it being our first game.

Its U-GO-I-GO, with the first turn being determined by a D6 roll off, modified by how many recce units you have (I had 1 and so did the SS) and I won.

First up you roll for command and control, which at this size of game is 1D6+number of command units (in larger games you get 2D6 or 3D6 and will have more command too). I had 1 again. This roll sets the number of units you can activate in your turn. After a few low rolls I started to wish I had more command units or had included the supreme command, which allows a re-roll of the D6 – very useful, but he’s an expensive unit in a 250 point game. But when you only activate 2 units for 2 turns in succession you need one (or better dice).

You then activate units one at time, and each gets two actions. You have free reign here, to move-shoot, shoot-move, move twice or shoot twice (at the same or different targets). This I liked a lot, you can set up attacks, put down lots of suppressing fire with MGs, mortars and HE, then move up with other units. We started by using direct fire actions a lot, and began to realize that it wasn’t so easy. Direct fire requires a spotting check, and if you fail you loose the action, and it’s generally quite hard to hit, especially if you are moving and so are they. Suppressing fire is much quicker and easier, but doesn’t kill stuff. We soon realised that HE shells were far more useful that AP shells in tanks, being good for suppressing and direct fire, whilst AP is direct only. We soon started to run out of HE shells (AFVs have ammo limits). Again, this seemed a cute rule and suddenly made the tanks MGs useful for suppressing too, and made the inclusion of at least 1 supply truck in your force a must – lesson learnt.

So far so good, we ere enjoying the game, moving and shooting away happily. Movement is straight forwards, the detail is in shooting actions.

Easily the best thing (IMHO) was the battle group morale system. There is a pot of counters numbered 1 to 4. Each time you loose a vehicle, a squad or weapons team, or you want to remove suppression, you take a random counter. You keep a running total, and when this gets to your army’s total morale value you have lost - time to withdraw. My total was 18, and after loosing an armoured car, a Sherman and removing some suppression I was already at 9. I knew my opponent had only taken 1 counter, but not his total, which was great. I was obviously loosing, but it added a good sense of tension, and I knew I needed to be more careful – racing the Daimler armoured car ahead for a crafty shot was not a good idea, it just cost me morale.

I have to say the battle group morale system made the game for me, and I’ll definitely be giving it another go. Next time I’ll include some off-table artillery (which seemed very expensive in the army lists – so it better hurt) and aircraft. Its still early days, but I have to say (I know its not fashionable to be positive round here) but it floated my boat - nice level of detail and I think once I’m better familiarized with the rules it will run much quicker, maybe sub-2 hours.


As an added note the army lists don’t seem to draw from real life too heavily. You are described as making an ‘all-arms battle group from a larger division’, and they seem to encourage variety, a bit of everything rather than an over reliance on tanks, although they are flexible enough to built actual units if that’s your bag. I needed more infantry – second lesson learnt.

If I was giving it a rating it would a provisional 7.5-8 on first impressions. I’m looking forward to larger game.


PS. I lost in the end, I reached my breaking point in German turn 6. The Germans had only reached 11 out of 21 and I didn’t get any of his Panzer IVs. Damn those veteran SS, they seemed tough.

[Verythrax]

Cool, Erwin. Thanks for sharing the impressions. Sounds cool, and intriguing, at least.

*fingers crossed for continuous support from FW*

[spartansi]

I was looking for a playable set of rules for small unit actions in this period.

But £48....... you could buy a few units for that price.

Just shows how really out of touch they are with their potential market.

[Axebreaker]

I was looking for a playable set of rules for small unit actions in this period.

But £48....... you could buy a few units for that price.

Just shows how really out of touch they are with their potential market.

Have you taken a look at Disposable Heroes by Iron Ivan Games. Very inexpensive and fun to play. On the downside fluff and pics are almost completely absent in the rules packs.

Christopher

[xJEDIx]

I was looking for a playable set of rules for small unit actions in this period.

But £48....... you could buy a few units for that price.

Just shows how really out of touch they are with their potential market.

Have you taken a look at Disposable Heroes by Iron Ivan Games. Very inexpensive and fun to play. On the downside fluff and pics are almost completely absent in the rules packs.

Christopher

You also have Operation Squad, designed to play squad-vs-squad games.
I don't have them neither know anything about them because I wanted a similar WH:40K set of rules in WWII and once I've read about these squad type rules I disconnected my radar.

At first glance, these Kampfgruppe also aren't the rules I expected them to be, so I guess I will get stuck into Warhammer Alternative WWII rules!

[Predator]

You also have Operation Squad, designed to play squad-vs-squad games.
I don't have them neither know anything about them because I wanted a similar WH:40K set of rules in WWII and once I've read about these squad type rules I disconnected my radar.

At first glance, these Kampfgruppe also aren't the rules I expected them to be, so I guess I will get stuck into Warhammer Alternative WWII rules!

Evening all. First post so please be gentle!

You might wish to look at the free set FUBAR which is very nice alternative to WH40K WW2.

However, for me, the post from Warhound has given me more confidence in Kampfgruppe Normandy; I really do like the way the Battle Group Morale works and I'm not sorry I bought the rules now.

I've been a big fan of DH for a long while now, but there were quite a few things that our group didn't like about it. The whole ability to fight your force in a battle of attrition was always worrying.

No, I think that KGN's approach of forcing you to improve your command and control and aapplying a semblance of battlefield Friction by not allowing you to move everything in one go offsets the UG-IGO systems too... you can put units in Covering Fire ie Overwatch too, so not all UG-IGO.

Now just need to convince others in out group to give it a go with a game.

[Axebreaker]

Now just need to convince others in out group to give it a go with a game.

I'm sure you might convince them to try a game, but buying the rules.........

Christopher

[erwinrommel]

Now there's a thing, a comment from somebody else who has read the rules...

I played a second small game on monday evening (does that makes me the most experienced gamer in the world at the moment?).

Again it was Brits vs SS, and again it was very good. In fact a few things start to occur. Firstly, we began to appreciate the fundamental nature of suppressing fire, its not optional, we have found ourselves using it all the time.

Second, the command control is very good, a simple and neat mechanic but it adds a great level of the unpredictable, not to everybody's taste, but I really like it. Looking back I think I lost the first game because of my poor Command rolls and lack of command units. I tried to correct that this time, and it helped. I was winning...then I lost.

Which is the third point, a little rules gem hidden in the morale rules. If, regardless of the morale situation, one player can claim all the objectives he just wins outright. I got caught by that, when a German recce team of 3 men in a swimmwagen grabbed an objective I'd ignored. Suddenly he had all 3 and it was all over! A unit that I thought was no threat won him the game. So I guess you do have to fight for the objectives, killing the enemy isn't enough.

Fourthly, soft-skins. They go up easily and cost you morale. I lost a few trucks and a jeep and it cost me 8 morale. You've got to keep them safe, you can't just waste them.

Fifth, artillery. At first the off table arty missed and it seemed they would be too inaccurate to do much. Then they got closer, and boy they suppressed a lot. Nothing died but everthing suddenly hit the dirt. A pleasing result (for me). So its not that deadly, but its great for suppression.

I have to say on second play the game grew on me, there's a lot in it.I'd say a nice level of complexity, not overly simple (which I often find with RF).All in all well worth the effort. Suddenly I'm no longer worrying about the price tag, I just want to try a bigger game.

[xJEDIx]

Hey erwinrommel,
Thanks for the inside info!

Can you please tell me how the Army Composition works? Is like the GW standart by points per model? And it's like Squad based, Platoon based? And how is the access to AFVs and other Vehicles?

Does it resemble in some aspects with other GW systems, like 40K or The Great War?


I'm interested in a WWII gaming system for 20mm that would offer something more than FOW, and I like The Great War by GW so my radar in this one is tuned. But there are some aspects I've read about the system that doesn't convinced me at all.

[Predator]

Erwin, thanks for the AAR. I suspected that taking Objectives would pose a gotcha for some.

As far as soft skin vehicles go, I'm just hoping that the fragility of them doesn't end up stopping people taking thema sa options. Cheap asa chips to mount most squads in trucks but a juicy target and the morale value for lost units would really hurt as you said.

Hey, xJ' would you mind talking about the asapects you ahve read about that you don't find appealing?

As far as force building goes, you have to have Infantry as minimum, for 250 pts min 1 squad, max 1 Platoon, 500 Pts (Company level game) minimum 1 Platoon, max three platoons anad for a 750 point or larger game (Battalion level) minimum 2 Platoons, max 6 platoons of Infanatry. You also have Rare (limited by the points size game asa well) and Unique units ie only 1 allowed of that type in a game.

Our group have plaayed a lot of GW systems and I think I would have to say that you get echoes of them in places but it is not recognisable as a 40K or WHGW or LotR vaariant by any means.

Something no-one I've read so far has commented that the rules contain a LOT of scenarios (21 individual), and two "mini" campaigns which are really linked scenarios (7 for each, so another 14 for a grand total of 35 scenarios. So there's the equivalent of another two Skirmish Campaaigns books worth at least (I have about a dozen of those by the way).

So, if you want to talk about value for money, I reckon the rules plus the scenarios are a fair price!

To be fair, if you can get your hands on a copy to look through do that rather than mail order without sighting it or relying on anyones reviews at this early stage unless you know them aand trust their judgement already

[erwinrommel]

Hey erwinrommel,
Thanks for the inside info!

Can you please tell me how the Army Composition works? Is like the GW standart by points per model? And it's like Squad based, Platoon based? And how is the access to AFVs and other Vehicles?

Does it resemble in some aspects with other GW systems, like 40K or The Great War?


I'm interested in a WWII gaming system for 20mm that would offer something more than FOW, and I like The Great War by GW so my radar in this one is tuned. But there are some aspects I've read about the system that doesn't convinced me at all.

I don't really know those other games, so I'm not in a good position to compare. Army-wise its points based, everything has its value, and also has a morale value (MV) from 0 to 4. So you have a points total and a MV total, which sets your break point.

Units are bought from Assets, being: Headquarters, Armour, Infantry, Artillery and Defences (only for defenders). Each asset has main force and support. Each main force unit allows one support unit, so you have to have basic footsloggers to get stuff like machine guns, mortars, anti-tank guns, etc. So far it's produced varied but quiet balanced 'all arms battle groups'. We aren't the type of gamers that spend hours working through army lists to find loopholes, so I wouldn't say we are stress testing it.

Its definiately got more than FoW, which I played once and disliked heavily. Its far cannier than that,from my brief experience I'd say it will reward good tactical play. I'm just learning, but it seems good use of combined weaponry might be the key. Artillery for heavy suppression, tanks for the killing, maybe infantry for holding objectives? That's my thinking for next time - but I like that I am thinking about it - must be a good sign.

[Predator]

Well, played out first two games today. Basic meeting engagement for Brits vs German Infantry Divisions; Churchill's vs PzIV H's and an Infantry Platoon apiece with a few extra bits. 19MV for the Brits and 18MV for the Germans.

Overall, very impressed. At this level we played two games (same set up but swapped armies). The reducing morale score forced us to withdraw units our of harms way once they had taken aa few hits for fear of losing a squad either destroyed or withdrawn due to failed morale test.

The value of commanad units might seem minor but when you roll a couple of low scores for activations, having an extra 2 each turn makes a big difference.

In both games the Germans lost out due to running out of MV points, but unlike many other rules sets, it wasn't a casae of having only 2 or 3 units left. In the first game the Germans only lost 1 out of 3 PxIVs, 2 rifle teams and a MMG but took a lot of suppressions and consequently a lot of MV... basically they became punch drunk/shell shocked and had enough. The second game the PzIVs took out two Churchills but lost too many infantry and in two turns lost 12 out of 18 MVs alone!!!! Ouch.

Yes, liking these rules a lot so far.

Oh, at $80AUD I actually think they are fair value for money.

[romanitas]

I think you are all quite lucky. I live in dublin
and the only games I can get are fantasy, warmhordes and Force on Force (and that's just cause a mate likes it enough to buy the rule book)
I love the feel of the rules but I cant try it simply because I cant get any warm bodies to play. I have all the minis I need.

you guys at least can get a game. if I want a historical game these days I would have to play Deadly Boring Manouvers.

so if any of you are living in dublin give me a shout