Alternative Japanese list

[Pijlie]

I started this list by tinkering the list made by Anthony Edwards in 2003 (I think) and combining it with the AoA list and my own ideas of the Japanese martial history. It turned out to be a work with growing potential so instead of the text I shall post the latest version here as an attachment to the first post of this thread.

I would be very greatful for any input and comments. Making this list has at least inspried me to start painting samurai again, so I hope to test it soon. But of course, I am very curious for all experiences of those who played this list.

So far I managed to weed out ninja (and put them in again), bullet-proof monks, swordmasters, superhuman champions, the Seven Samurai and Bruce Lee. I included army lists for the five main periods, hopefully capturing the flavour of the period, weapons for all these periods and when necessary rules to govern tactics using these weapons. I tried to stay as close as possible to existing rules, if not from the WAB book itself, then from an existing supplement.

I´d like to keep hearing what you think. I know I should wait for DW but well, I´m impatient...

WAB Samurai army list 2.0.doc

(294.5 KiB) Downloaded 398 times

[Justin]

[Pijlie]

Thanks for replying. I know you for being critical and constructive reviewer, so any response you have to offer is welcome

OK first you have to decide whether you are playing 'Hollywood' history or real history. Also bear in mind that my remarks are off the cuff as I have not researched a Samurai list.

While not averse to drama, I lean toward history. So samurai are supposed to be professional soldiers, but no supermen. Ashigaru are supposed to be the main troop type for the Sengoku period (so cheap) but should be far less common in the Edo period (hence the increased price). Ninja and heroes should leave altogether and warrior priests, well, that´s a bit difficult.

On the generals running away, I think you will find that generals did run away to fight again. So no the immune to Breaks and fleeing troops does not ring true.

On second thought, I´m with you there.

I would keep the Honurable rule from the current list (otherwise makes Samurai too easy to lead).

Again on second thought, the Warband nr 1 rule would be even better for Samurai. who were difficult to control and tended to seek the enemy out even without orders to do so. Also like the mandatory acceptance of a challenge.

Also Samurai characters can not lead units of Ashigaru. Othewise that eliminates one of the real disadvantages of Ashigaru, their low leadership. Would any decent Samurai waste their time leading rabble?

I see what you mean. But ashigaru were regurlarly led by samurai of low status. Their leadership would I think also be that of their regular leader. The Warband nr 2 rule would be suitable for ashigaru. Samurai characters should be allowed to lead ashigaru, I think. Those are expensive enough, after all.

There actually were warrior monks, but they usually fought in armies not unlike the samurai themselves. Perhaps I should create a subclass like the Ikko-Ikki, who were more rank-and-file level warriors than the martial monastery orders. In any case, the role of warrior clerics in a samurai army was never large, but the armies they formed themselves could cause daimyos some serious trouble. Maybe I should save them for another list altogether? It is still fun, and not unhistorical, to field warrior priest allies in a samurai army. But they should in any case be just allies, not profiting from ASB and such. They were also very treacherous, so a "mercenary rule" might be applicable.

Musings, musings....

[Justin]

[Tommy]

I see what you mean. But ashigaru were regurlarly led by samurai of low status. Their leadership would I think also be that of their regular leader. The Warband nr 2 rule would be suitable for ashigaru. Samurai characters should be allowed to lead ashigaru, I think. Those are expensive enough, after all.

So how about having a rule like the Centurion rule for ashigaru lead by a Samurai warrior?

That sounds reasonable.

[Pijlie]

Ashigaru leader
Pay 10 points for a Samurai to lead them for as long as he survives. Brilliant!

Ashigaru
Another thing: Ashigaru, when not functioning as archers or arquebusiers, were generally trained to fight as blocks of spear- or pikemen. At least in the Sengoku period. Sengoku ashigaru should be able to fight their thrusting spears with two ranks in the charge?

Arquebus/musket
I don´t know the ECW rules, but the original writer of this list already turned arquebuses and muskets in interesting variations of existing missile weapons. They should reflect the main characteristics of the gun in Japanese warfare: easy to use, slow to reload, not very accurate but able to fire massed volleys at relatively short range. I dunno if the ECW guns do the same.

Cannon
Should I make rules for cannon? They were rarely if ever used on the battlefield and wre usually reserved for sieges. Simply treating cannon as heavy stonethrowers should be enough I think.

I edited my adaptations on the first version in the first post of this thread.

[fitterpete]

p

[ghorvers]

I think you might want to have a look at the ECW rules for shot and cannon, could be useful. From memory, shot is limited to a specific number per game, to avoid making it overpowering, or you can opt for unlimited shot but you pay a lot of extra points. If you want to borrow the book, give me a holler. I'll bring it along for our next game.

Cheers,
Geert

[Pijlie]

Questions though,the halberd , nodaichi,and samurai sword are all plus 1 strength. sam sword gives the parry option fair enough,what would anyone want with nodaichi over naganita if nodaichi strikes last?

Both are two handed weapons, but the naginata/halberd gives a +1 S and strikes on Initiative, the no-dachi a +2 S but strikes last. It´s a choice really. I would fancy heavy samurai armour when wielding no-dachi though....

And Geert, I´d like to take a peek in the ECW book. Cannon were never a big thing for samurai battles, but still it might yield good ideas.

[ghorvers]

And Geert, I´d like to take a peek in the ECW book

No prob!

Cheers,
Geert

[fitterpete]

p

[Pijlie]

Oops!

Corrected!

[Justin]

[Guy]

Hello
Seen the DW playtest list yours is better,

Really? Have you played any games with this list? (I'm planning my 20th in the next two weeks). I think RobB's done a very good job personally.

if they come out with the list I saw Im selling my 1500 samurai figs.

That all depends which version you saw. I'm guessing it wasn't anything recent.

-----------------------------------------

I admire Pijlie's attempt at trying to turn the existing samurai list into something useable until DW comes out. Some thoughts...

Cannons? I think there's one sole case of one being used in a siege (I'll look up the reference). They weren't used as battlefield weapons and should not appear IMHO.

This is supposed to represent the Sengoku Jidai period? Why all the arquebus? The hand gun was not introduced until the middle of the Sengoku Jidai period and only became truly prevalent after the Shogunate was reestablished. Your list will require some limitations (else an army of 200 arquebus sounds great...).

Ninja were allegedly used in the battlefield role, mainly to confuse, slow and harass the enemy.

Guy

[Justin]

[Franklin]

All of us are waiting Divine Wind !

One thing important for me in your list :

Sengoku era begin around 1450 ( end of Onin wars ) until 1600, but even the Monoyama starts in 1573. The lists must be totally different in the spirit between Samurais armies before 1540 and after with introduction of musket.
During the Monoyama you have to do list by family, a Takeda army has a so powerful cavalry and Nobunaga is a so good strategist. The interest is inside the difference of clan and their leaders. My advice is to play with the rules from the English Civil Wars, suitable with the spirit of the gunpowder. Less samurais but massive firepower.
No guns ! Maybe use one time a single guns in open battle, only in siege, Osaka is the reference of using guns in Japanese warfare.

About arms :

Naginata : halberd

Yari : before and after Monoyama era use like a trusting spears or halberd, like in Art of war will be fine, just use the same option, you choose before you fight.
Monoyama period can use long version like pike ( mochi yari ) in sub unit of musketeers, has to be used to defend them against cavalry charges.

Teppo : is a matchlock musket, deadly effective at 50 meters, but can shoot until 380 m. Volley fire can be available, but not for all the clans. Nobunaga learns about it from his long wars against Ikko-Ikki who has a special squadron of 2000 musketeers.
Sub unit of bows can be include ( 1 bowman for 3 musketeers ).

No-Dachi : Two handed sword but not really fashion in this time. Don’t forget a Japanese proverb who said : “ More long is the blade more stupid is the Samurai “

Katana : Samurais, Ashigaru, even Wakato use Katana. It’s a sword ! Samurais are master to use it, can be including in their profile, Parry ? Why not if you use in the same time with a Wakisashi ( smallest katana ), in this case your samurai has two weapons.

Yumi : even look like longbow, it’s a composite bow.

Exotic weapons : hmmm ! Not fine for me ! Not really precise.

About the troops I will come back this week…

See you soon.

Franklin

[Franklin]

Add on :

Yari like pike is nagae yari. Mochi yari are the standard yari

Franklin

[fitterpete]

p

[Guy]

No I havnt played any games with this list or the one I saw.Should have stated IMHO,I guess.No need to be rude.

That wasn't rude mate, just stating my opinion. I'm sorry you took offence.

Its a bit like Hannibal, I hated it at first but when I played a few games I was a lot happier with it.

IMHO ,the samurai are fine with minor tweaking,like has been done here.

Not too sure about that. I hope they get tamed down quite dramatically. I found with the old lists, whoever charged won. It became quite predictable - boring!

Thanks for turning me off to this site in my first month,I promise not to give my opinion anymore.

Stating your opinion is fine as long as you're happy people disagreeing with it. You'll find people disagree amicably with me (and others*) all the time on here. That is one of the strengths of this group.

So I hope you don't promise or commit to anything, it'll be a far less interesting group that way.

Cheers,

Guy

* Ok, generally me!

[Justin]