Alternative Japanese list

[Pijlie]

Thanks for all your response! I spent a lot of time on the train today so the laptop has been busy. I cleaned away some more Hollywood influences, added some fluff and started the outline of period-specific army lists. While I like the Sengoku period, the earlier periods also have a lot of interesting aspects. I still retain some things which are simply to keep the flavour of the period though.

I don´t think I have to divide the earlier Sengoku period lists by family. Simply by taking more ashigaru or more cavalry you can vary your army. Those who know the Takeda history will recognize a Takeda army, others will simply think it´s a cool cavalry army. It does not matter.

I kind of took the horse barding for granted but actually have failed to find any proof for it. AFAIK samurai used a lot of decoration on their horses, but no barding.

The fighting styles of ashigaru need some work too. As do a lot of other things. There´s a new day tomorrow!

I replaced the first post of this thread with the latest version.

PS

I never saw the DW test list, but I´d like too!

[Guy]

I am with fitterpete on this one. Sometimes list authors get carried away with their bright ideas. I was part of the Hannibal list testing team, who said don't do it. Result, we were sacked and the author carried on.

I have had the very good fortune to work with quite a few authors in playtesting (by sheer luck and some tenacity on my part). The best ones listen to your comments and go through them with you either explaining their position or adopting your ideas. I put Rob in that category.

As for the amount of time it takes, well in theory Rob could have rushed it out madly and we would have had something resembling Samurai lists by now. Instead Divine Wind is being thoroughly playtested, which means all the lists will be that much better.

Guy

[Pijlie]

I have been comtemplating the fighting style of ashigaru. When employed as light infantry or teppo there is no problem I think.

When employed as spearmen the question is whether they were used offensively or mainly to defend against samurai or other ashigaru. OTOH, the troop type is cheap and the ability to attack with two ranks is probably too much for their costs. So it goes.

Artificially boosting their Ld with a daimyo is now discouraged by making the Daimyo hideously expensive (and really only viable for large armies where his command radius will be less influential).

Artificially boosting their Ld with a samurai is much cheaper but may now not be permanent, since samurai (or warrior priest) leaders may now be challenged.

Their relative rareness in earlier periods is now worked into the army lists. Their low status in the early period is reflected by forbidding them missile weapons (the bow being THE samurai weapon then).

[Franklin]

Where we can see the list in playtest for DW ?

I am interrested to see it also.

The first period of Sengoku Era will give you more freedom in your choice, sure ! And don't need to divide by familly, more flexible than the late Sengoku era.

Right, no bard for cavalry.

Ashigaru with Ld 6 or 7 will be realist.

Ashigaru spearmen in order will be fine, bowmen and muketers light infantry ( remain me the fire of the musketers from the wood in RAN )

You are on the way to do a great job.

Franklin

[Guy]

Where we can see the list in playtest for DW ?

Unfortunately, that's up to the author to invite people to playtest. Playtesters don't remain playtesters for very long if they give out copies of army lists.

Guy

[Franklin]

One other question about DW :

What is the thema of the book ? Generality about Japanese army or specific about an era ?

Franklin

[Justin]

[Franklin]

Correction to my question :
" When the playtesters will be able to show the list before printing ? "

Franklin

[Guy]

What is the thema of the book ? Generality about Japanese army or specific about an era ?

I think I can say it'll cover the main periods of Japanese history. So you'll have your Gempei Samurai, Mongol Invasion and the Sengoku Jidai. While definitely not part of the book, I plan to run a Sengoku period army against an Meiji era conscript army at some point.

Guy

[Justin]

[Franklin]

Thanks for your informations.

Just hope to do not see a book like Age of Chivalry !

Franklin

[Guy]

My comment has been that the people who test the lists seem to be of like mind to WHH.

Some might be... I tend to be a little troublesome...
.. which some authors like and some don't.

Guy

[Justin]

[Franklin]

" I have play a couple of games and had a good time. "

Me too !

Just hope the conceptors will be able to produce a quality equal to Shieldwall or Age of Arthur.

Franklin

[Pijlie]

This data is restricted.

Curiosity is futile! Prepare to be assimilated!

But seriously, thanks for the response. I posted the latest version as an attachment in the first post of this thread.

Added:
Buddhist relics (historical, really!), Sohei and Ikko-Ikki may use firearms, firearms and pike may be combined, Period-specific army list, gradual Honour rules depending on period and opponent, pavises, field works (a rough outline) sohei may take horse, cannon = stonethrower

Am contemplating;
Ronin seem a bit bland. Yet they must be in it.
Detailed rules for fieldworks
combining firearms and bows in the same unit (this was done for similar purposes as combining firearms with pikes).
Making teppo-ashigaru light or formed infantry.

About the latter: I understand that ashigaru pike&shot formations were nowhere near as dense as their European counterparts. But they must have had a coordinated formation or else the long pikes must have gotten in eachothers way. This would lead to teppo/pike combinations being formed. Teppo-only formations of course did not have that problem. But here the desirability of concentrated fire tends to move toward formed units. Then again, being formed or not has no bearing in the rules of shooting in WAB, so being Light Infantry may actually improve their performance. Hmmmm.

And in skirmish formation, the rear rank can fire through the gaps of the front rank, enabling all teppo to fire in one turn (and reload in the next). This makes them tactically more interesting. Hmmmm again.

[Guy]

cannon = stonethrower?

How about cannon = non existent on the battlefield?

I would be very wary of having something in the game which was never used for that purpose, the cannon was never used to my knowledge in open warfare. You might want to do some research into siege warfare in ancient Japan and you might find out why the cannon was such a rare sight and its effects (minimal) when it was used in siege. Castles of the period by an incredible coincidence had much in common construction wise with the Vauban fortifications of the later renaissance, which were incredibly cannon 'proof'.

You have dismissed ninjas (which Tokugawa used on the battlefield) and yet we have 'stone throwers' cannons which were never used?

Guy

[Pijlie]

Well, I did look into that . Cannon were used on the battlefield -admittedly to very little effect- at Sekigahara. Here Mitsunari ordered five cannon to fire at the attacking Tokugawa troops. They didn´t hit much, but managed to drive them back, which is -in my experience- about what good stonethrowers have ever done me on the gaming table

But apart from that cannon may be used in sieges and there were a lot of sieges in the Sengoku period. So we need cannon!

As for the stonethrower/cannon comparison. As I understand it Japanese (or borrowed Western) cannon fired large metal balls of fixed diameter or, in case of Japanese-made ordnance, weight. Not unlike stones, I think. They were pretty inaccurate, but like stonethrowers fired their missiles in a high trajectory and had enough range to overshoot the invulnerable walls of castles and reach the wooden structures within, which was where their real effect lay. The balls were capable of destroying these structures and sometimes setting them alight. Also ST have a long, but limited range. I think it´s bad form to introduce artillery that may fire across the whole table.

Personally I didn´t think the comparison with a ST was a bad one. Admittedly I never read ECW, which might have better cannon rules (and contemporary at that) but so far so good. But Geert will borrow me his ECW to study, so I´m open to better alternatives.

Finally, the ninja. Well, you have me there. Ninja took part in several battles (more battles than featured cannon, anyway ) but AFAIK mainly as disguised or stealthy insurgents into camps and besieged castles and sometimes as ambushers and traplayers on battlefields. The first role I find hard to emulate in general rules, although I see the scenario potential. For the second role I imagine a kind of stealthy Ulfhednar with a skill like Concealment from AoArt. But their appearance was also extremely rare and I wouldn´t want to see them pop up in every army because they´re cool... OTOH that might be none of my business. What about this?

0-1 unit of Ninja

M Ws Bs S T W I A Ld Pts
4 4 4 3 3 1 4 1 7 30

Hand weapon. May take light armour (+1), samurai sword (+2), throwing knives (+1, treat as javelin), thrusting spear (+1), Bow (+2), naginata (+2), teppo (2) or musket (+3). Stubborn. Concealment. Light Infantry.

Ninja may be chosen as allies in the early Muromachi and both the Sengoku periods.

Optional rules: Ninja may lay in ambush somewhere on the table. Their position is drawn on a map. The unit is not placed on the table before the ninja come into action or are spotted. The opponent may request to see the map then. A ninja unit is spotted as an enemy unit passes its position within 4". Ninja may also disguise themselves and as such enter the table looking like another unit. The ninja unit is only placed on the table as soon as they reveal themselves.

[Franklin]

"But apart from that cannon may be used in sieges and there were a lot of sieges in the Sengoku period. So we need cannon!"

For Sieges we need cannon, most of them don't have wheels, once you install it cannot move and difficult to change the position, anly fire angle, also long to reload.


"Personally I didn´t think the comparison with a ST was a bad one. Admittedly I never read ECW, which might have better cannon rules (and contemporary at that) but so far so good. But Geert will borrow me his ECW to study, so I´m open to better alternatives."

I believe more in the rule of ECW to manage a late Segoku jidai army. It's my opinion
Need also to add specific caracteristic, for example : Takeda cavalry with First Charge, impetuous or Rash option. Uesugi or Nobunaga spearmen can use Pike option. Sanada can have a unit of elite bowmen ( Samurai or Ashigaru I dont know ). Li contingent samurai can have a specific profile, etc etc.


Ninja is a good option, but I will consider them in a army option inside character budget, Cost of 30 is huge, look cost of Ulfnednar 18 to 20 points looks reasonable.
Teppo is a matchlock musket not an Arquebus. all of them are more or less the same, the way to shoot, the weight, similar like musket ( I had three before in my own collection)
If you want something similar arquebus consider the Kakae Zusu, hand cannon, but has to be use by character only in a few quantity. I don't know the effect and the use during battles,maybe during sieges, they say hand siege gun also.[attachment=0]

Keep in touch.

Franklin

[Justin]

[Franklin]

Agree with Justin, cause fear is a good option. Ld of Ninja 8 even 9 why not ? I don't like the superheroes ability in WAB but if we consider them like character, with 30 points each, why not ??

Franklin