Alternative Japanese list

[Pijlie]

This morning I tinkered with ninja as an Allied unit. Some calculation made 30 points too high, but 20 too low. 25 points should oblige the player to invest heavily in ninja when he wishes to use them, which in turn obliges him to build his strategy around them, as it should be in a game I think.

Cause Fear is a nice touch indeed! Maybe skills like Disguise and Ambush should be bought separately instead of being automatic ninja traits. This would make them affordable, more flexible and less all-powerful.

I take a leaf from AoArt here, I think.

[Christof]

I'm not sure about using ninja in a battle. They might be ok in a siege though...
This said I'd like to field some ninja miniatures as well They should be trained to be fast and enduring. Special abilities like feigned flight and always fbigo would fit imho. They should be skirmishers and scouts. I do not understand why they should cause fear. WS one lower than samurai fits.

As ninja were spies I would prefer them to be used in a prebattle sequence most of the time. Buy some "ninja-dice-rolls" on a sabotage-table, which gives random results that allow you to place an unit in ambush position or allow you to have an opposing unit entering the battlefield in the first turn...

[Guy]

Sekigahara is the one exception I referred to, seen by most as the final big battle of the Sengoku Jidai (where incidentally only about 10% maximum of the troops were firearm armed). It is one thing to make a special rule where the Mitsunari Clan in 1600 can have one cannon, another entirely for every Samurai clan throughout the entire 150 odd years of the Age of a Country at war to have them. You have to protect players from what they want.

Thanks to the construction of Japanese castles, cannons were virtually useless in sieges. Stone and earth is one of the best protections against cannons, as the later Vauban fortifications would testify. Generally they were taken by negotiation or by force of arms.

On the use of Ninja, they were typically used to delay and harass the enemy, so forget the fancy weapon options apart from bow or arquebus, the ability for them to 'appear' on the battlefield is enough. Causing fear? Not too sure about that...

Cheers,

Guy

[Tommy]

I will second that, Ninja as a unit within the character points option, rule like concealment but not quite like. As putting your units down last gives +1 to the chance of the enemy getting the first turn. Un-ninja'ish. Perhaps cause Fear as well, and keep the 30 points each of course.

How about the concealment rule from Age of Arthur?

[Justin]

[Pijlie]

Thinking about the "user requierments" for ninja (I´m spending too much time in meetings lately) they should be
° rare (thus expensive)
° able to ambush and surprise (thus in need of special skills)
° fast and deadly (thus high stats and a wide range of weapons)
° versatile

I seriously contemplated Fear, but in the end thought that gaming versatility and surprise were more important and ninja should be feared for this, not Feared as a rule. I finally ended up with this. A unit of 10 lightly armoured ninja (Ld, SB, Ms) with samurai swords and shuriken (=javelins) being able to lurk in ambush would set you back 345 points. Still attractive for one deadly ace up your sleeve I think.

Ninja
The feared and legendary ninja were actually a historical reality. Several Daimyos used them as assassins, insurgents and ambush troops in battle. Ninjas operated from the mid 15th century onwards.

M Ws Bs S T W I A Ld Pts
Ninja 5 4 4 3 3 1 4 1 7 25

The army may hire 0-1 units of ninja. Ninja carry hand weapons. May take samurai swords instead (+2), shuriken (+1), light armour (+1), thrusting spear (+1), Bow (+2), naginata (+2), teppo (2) or musket (+3), horse (+5). Stubborn. Light Infantry. May have Ambush (+5). May have Disguise (+5)

Ambush: Ninja may lay in ambush somewhere on the battlefield. Ambushes must be sprung from some kind of terrain (bush, woods, buildings) and may not be sprung from open terrain. Before the armies deploy, mark their position on a map. The figures are only placed on the table when the ambush is sprung or when they are spotted. Spotting range for formed troops is 2”, for troops in skirmish formation (whose job it is to look out for trouble) 4”. You are obliged to reveal your ninjas at the end of the turn that they were spotted in (even if they did nothing).Your opponent may demand to examine the map as soon as the ninja are revealed. Ninjas may attack from ambush in formation, even from buildings or difficult terrain.

Disguise: Ninja were masters of disguise. A unit of ninja may enter the battlefield looking as something else (peasants, ashigaru) and may even appear to be part of another unit. Place (a unit of) appropriate looking figures on the table. These are only replaced by the ninja figures when their true identity is revealed as they come into action.

[Pijlie]

Update:

Added ninja (slightly altered) and fixed a serious defect in the army lists (no fraction for allies given).

With a bit of luck I found a test player and playtesting can begin with unpainted (shudder, don´t tell anyone) 20mm armies.

I´d like to put a question to you. Until now I divided the historical army lists more or less in the official periods. However, samurai warfare in the Heian and Kamakura period up to the first Mongol Invasion of AD 1272 showed little changes. It was only as a reaction to the first Mongol invasion that the samurai began to reconsider tactics to meet the Mongol way of warfare, so completely alien to their own.

Would it be better to use one army list (the first) for the Heian and early Kamakura period including 1272 and use the second list from 1273 onwards?

[Kingsford Miniatures]

Thanks for pointing me to the list! I've downloaded it and will take a closer look.

[Justin]

[Pijlie]

Well, that would be when you discover there is something funny about those peasants. They won't fall over when shot and their player is rolling dice while they don't have any armour. Hmmm, strange....

That would count as a Spot, I'd say .

[Pijlie]

Reading about the Korean campaign I noticed the large number of instances that samurai nearly came to blows for the right of engaging the enemy first. This brought me to the following suggestion to represent this typical example of samurai behaviour:

When two samurai units, belonging to the same army and with equal Movement, announce a charge at the same target in the same turn, roll for both unit Leaderships. The AG's Ld may be used if possible. When both succeed, both proceed with the charge. When one or both fail, a dispute is started over the right to engage the enemy first. Roll a d6 for each unit. The higher roll wins the right to charge, the lower has a failed charge move. All this is resolved BEFORE charge distances are measured.

A tie means common sense prevails and both charge.

Like it?

[Kingsford Miniatures]

Why not make Ikko-Kki hate Samurai?

[Pijlie]

Why not make Ikko-Kki hate Samurai?

Like it. But wouldn´t it make them uneasy allies for samurai? Of course they would only Hate enemy samurai....

But I like it. Done!

I´d like to ask a favour. Please try to make a broken, cheesy reeking list with this list. Let´s see how cheese-proof it is. I posted the last version of the list in the first post of this thread. Latest changes:

Ikko-ikki Hate samurai
Muskets are gone (only appeared in the 17th century )
Heian and Early Kamakura period combined up to and including the first Mongol invasion.
Honour rules are modified.
Fluff added here and there.

I started basing the first units for playtesting. As soon as they are painted as well, I´ll throw in some pictures. They are all Zvezda, Caesar and Redbox 20mm plastic figures.

[Ben]

ok maybe not that broken, but this is the list i came up with quickly

daymio: samuria armour and sword
ASB: samurai armour and sword
44 Ashigaru : pike, LSM
44 ashigaru : pike, LSM
20 Ashigaru :teppo
20 Ashigaru :teppo
20 Ashigaru :teppo
20 Sohei : Heavy samurai armour, naginata, LSM
6 ninja, Ambush, Light armour, horse, bow.
total 2000 points
the daymio and asb should keep the ashigaru fighting, pike and gunners interspersed, the ninja run interference on one flank while the sohei crush the other , thier move 5 overcoming the move penalty of the armour, and in 3 ranks 15 naginat attacks on the charge at WS 4 is mean, naginata wins over no-dachi due to I 5.

hope this helps with the lists
Ben

[TonyStafford]

ok maybe not that broken, but this is the list i came up with quickly

daymio: samuria armour and sword
ASB: samurai armour and sword
44 Ashigaru : pike, LSM
44 ashigaru : pike, LSM
20 Ashigaru :teppo
20 Ashigaru :teppo
20 Ashigaru :teppo
20 Sohei : Heavy samurai armour, naginata, LSM
6 ninja, Ambush, Light armour, horse, bow.
total 2000 points
the daymio and asb should keep the ashigaru fighting, pike and gunners interspersed, the ninja run interference on one flank while the sohei crush the other , thier move 5 overcoming the move penalty of the armour, and in 3 ranks 15 naginat attacks on the charge at WS 4 is mean, naginata wins over no-dachi due to I 5.

hope this helps with the lists
Ben

Ben

Guy Will be proud of you

Tony

[Pijlie]

Not bad Thanks for the input.

daymio: samuria armour and sword 200
ASB: samurai armour and sword 100
44 Ashigaru : pike, LSM 323
44 ashigaru : pike, LSM 323
20 Ashigaru :teppo 140
20 Ashigaru :teppo 140
20 Ashigaru :teppo 140
20 Sohei : Heavy samurai armour, naginata, LSM 415
6 ninja, Ambush, Light armour, horse, bow. 228
2009

Characters 15 %
Samurai 0 %
Ashigaru 53 %
Allies 32 %

So it´s an all legal ashigaru army with some allies. Not the most dynamic of armies and one bound to get into trouble once a flank crumbles but blatantly unhistorical in any respect! At least I have never heard of an army like this one....

I have to tinker with the lists some more... Maybe one samurai unit for every two ashigaru? Back to the drawing board for this!

[Ben]

well a Guy army would have a lot more cheap missile power

i would go for 1 + samurai units as a choice, makes 1 unit compulsory.

must admit to not being an expert on the period, but i can certainly see what looks odd in some lists,

initial views, the sohei look really powerful, i was actually tempted to try and fit horses for them just to get them in combat earlier,
also should Ninja be allowed disguise/ambush when on a horse? seems odd to me?

keep up the good work

Ben

[Franklin]

Just an interresting link to this post without colour

http://www.japanesearmor.com/samurai_ar ... 16500.html

Franklin

[olyreed]

Any news on the list for the Korean Invasion?

[Pijlie]

Real Life caught up with me I´m afraid. But I´m still tooling away. I hope to make some additions in the next month or so....