Questions

[redben]

I'm going to ask these again here as I'm getting no joy in the Q&A section


Drilled cavalry rotating 45 degrees, how do you deal with the fact that their bases now overlap?

Phalanx imposes a penalty to missile fire from the front. How do you determine what is the front? Is it the same as for charging an enemy in the flank/rear or is there a 90 degree arc from each side?

Can Heavy Throwing Spears be used if the unit is charged in the flank/rear? I assume not but can't find where it says that.

Fleeing units that hit obstacles such as other units. The rules say that go round them, how exactly does this work? Do they reach the unit then turn to run across them until they reach the side of the unit and then turn again to run past them?

A unit who breaks an enemy and pursues has to roll higher than the fleeing unit to catch them. If they roll the same they will be right on them but enemy units can't be closer than 1". Is the pursuing unit forced to halt 1" behind the fleeing unit (which would be 1" less than they rolled)?

A unit charges and the enemy unit chooses or is forced to flee. They do not flee far enough and are destroyed, making the charge a successful one. A new enemy unit is revealed but the also flee and the charging unit does not have enough movement to catch them. How far do the chargers go? Is it the full extent of their movement?

[aergren]

1. Where are you finding that drilled troops can turn 45 degrees? The only way I know drilled troops can turn 45 degrees would be if they wheeled which wouldn't cause any base problems.

2. The phalanx penalty is based on the visibly arc not the flanking arc so it would be the 45 degree angle from the corners of the unit.

3. You are right I don't see anything stopping you from fighting in two ranks to the sides.

4. The idea of it is that because the fleeing troops have no formation that act as skirmishers so if there is any clear path around the units they have to go towards it, if there is none then they bounce past friendly units and die to enemy units.

5. p64 4th paragraph it says that they stop one inch behind the unit

6. From everything I know it counts as a completed charged and the chargers move their full distance forward.

[redben]

Thanks for the replies

1. Sorry, that should be 90 degrees, not 45 degrees.

2. That is how we play it but I can't find where it says that in the book

[aergren]

1. then there shouldn't be any base issues if each model turns the the left lets say in a 5x2 formation it will just be a 2x5 formation.
2. The phalanx says all shooting to the front is -1 to be hit and on page 15 a models front is defined as the 90 degrees in front of them. The charge flanking is completely different.

[redben]

Assuming that the cavalry are on 25x50mm bases then ranked up 5x2 they have a frontage of 125mm. Because the base is rectangle then if each one turns 90 degrees they turn into the base of the horse either side who in turn do the same. To create space then they would have to be moved, doubling their frontage to 250mm. Assuming you keep the same centre then the cavalry to either side of the formation will move around 5cm despite the fact they have not actually moved*. This can be used to do things like bring them into range to throw their javelins or march block when they should not have enough movement to do so.

*I know they surrender 1/4 of their movement to do the maneuver but so do infantry on square bases who don't gain this free move.

[aergren]

hmm I see what you are saying now. Rules as written i think lets them gain that extra movement, it might just be a benefit of being cav.

[fisher40k]

When a unit turns through 90 degrees left - assume the left most models rotate to that the front of their bases align with where the left edge was, then arrange the rest of the unit behind them into a long line.

This means the right most part of the unit (now the back) will be further back.

Now move.

If you turn back to face then the rear will catch up again, this is allowed as long as they do not move more than a march move. The front will become the left flank and they will all turn to face and move together as required.

Bases must never overlap.

[fisher40k]

Phalanx imposes a penalty to missile fire from the front. How do you determine what is the front? Is it the same as for charging an enemy in the flank/rear or is there a 90 degree arc from each side?

the front of the phalanx is defined in the same way for shooting as for charging. The shooters have a 45 degree arc of fire.

Can Heavy Throwing Spears be used if the unit is charged in the flank/rear? I assume not but can't find where it says that.

No

Fleeing units that hit obstacles such as other units. The rules say that go round them, how exactly does this work? Do they reach the unit then turn to run across them until they reach the side of the unit and then turn again to run past them?

No assume they head directly towards the gap from the start. remember they are a disorganised group. Normally we play that a unit just ends up behind a friendly unit in the way - having flowed around it.

A unit who breaks an enemy and pursues has to roll higher than the fleeing unit to catch them. If they roll the same they will be right on them but enemy units can't be closer than 1". Is the pursuing unit forced to halt 1" behind the fleeing unit (which would be 1" less than they rolled)?

Yes - you stop 1 inch behind

A unit charges and the enemy unit chooses or is forced to flee. They do not flee far enough and are destroyed, making the charge a successful one. A new enemy unit is revealed but the also flee and the charging unit does not have enough movement to catch them. How far do the chargers go? Is it the full extent of their movement?

You need to split this. the first flee - move the unit as far as they throw - then move the chargers in to contact - the fleeing unit is destroyed in the melee phase, so wait.

Now take off the fleeing unit. Now decide if an overrun is allowed for the chargers. follow the rules for an Overrun (I do not have the book to hand).

If the first fleeing unit got away - and this was a case of a re-directed charge - where the second unit also get away - then it becomes a normal failed charge - so just move forward a normal move towards the place of the second unit.

This often happens where a skirmish screen escapes and the charge is re-directed against the unit behind.

[aergren]

Where is the rule for not using heavy throwing spears to the side in two ranks.

[Loki]

I don't have the rule book with me (I'm at work) but from memory

If you read the rules for Heavy Throwing Spear they say something to the effect that except for the specific differences they work the same as throwing spears.

Throwing spears state they only fight in two ranks when fighting to the front

[redben]

Under the section on fighting in two ranks for HTS it says they work like TS so this would indeed mean they only work to the front. Thanks . It doesn't say anything about the +1S working like this and I can see arguments for both sides.

When a unit turns through 90 degrees left - assume the left most models rotate to that the front of their bases align with where the left edge was, then arrange the rest of the unit behind them into a long line.

This means the right most part of the unit (now the back) will be further back.

Now move.

If you turn back to face then the rear will catch up again, this is allowed as long as they do not move more than a march move. The front will become the left flank and they will all turn to face and move together as required.

Is this in the rules?


Many thanks to all those who have replied

[andyjp]

Under the section on fighting in two ranks for HTS it says they work like TS so this would indeed mean they only work to the front. Thanks . It doesn't say anything about the +1S working like this and I can see arguments for both sides.

When a unit turns through 90 degrees left - assume the left most models rotate to that the front of their bases align with where the left edge was, then arrange the rest of the unit behind them into a long line.

This means the right most part of the unit (now the back) will be further back.

Now move.

If you turn back to face then the rear will catch up again, this is allowed as long as they do not move more than a march move. The front will become the left flank and they will all turn to face and move together as required.

Is this in the rules?


Many thanks to all those who have replied

only the figures contacted turn to fight to the sides or rear so you cannot fight in two ranks.
If the unit was not already in combat then I'd say you get the +1S if this is the second round of combat then i'd say no strength bonus.
hope that helps

[Arken]

Under the section on fighting in two ranks for HTS it says they work like TS so this would indeed mean they only work to the front. Thanks . It doesn't say anything about the +1S working like this and I can see arguments for both sides.

When a unit turns through 90 degrees left - assume the left most models rotate to that the front of their bases align with where the left edge was, then arrange the rest of the unit behind them into a long line.

This means the right most part of the unit (now the back) will be further back.

Now move.

If you turn back to face then the rear will catch up again, this is allowed as long as they do not move more than a march move. The front will become the left flank and they will all turn to face and move together as required.

Is this in the rules?


Many thanks to all those who have replied

only the figures contacted turn to fight to the sides or rear so you cannot fight in two ranks.
If the unit was not already in combat then I'd say you get the +1S if this is the second round of combat then i'd say no strength bonus.
hope that helps

Andy, I believe the correct way to use throwing spears (heavy or otherwise) is to attacks to the front only, and in the first round of contact only (with the subsequent Str bonus if they are heavy spears) Attacks to the sides do not permit the use of any kind of throwing spears at any time. Therefore the +1 Str and use in 2 ranks would not be possible even inf. in the first row (technically in the side it is called a file) were contacted.

As for the previous point about unit expansion in size due to changing face, the front of the unit is used as the 'anchored' point for the unit's position. So if it turns to face the left, the new front of the unit would be placed on the line of the old 'left' side of of its current position (prior to the turn), with the rest of the unit formed up behind and expanding to the right. The centre point of the unit is not used. If this means that the back of the unit ends up a few inches further to the right as a result of having bases longer than they are wide, then so be it. If the unit turned to the right instead of the left instead, place the 'new' front of the unit on the line of the old right side of the unit. (I'm just elbaorating on what fisher40k as said really)

additionally If this means contact with an enenmy or friendly unit is made by accident prior to acctually moving the cavalry unit, I would say it is reasonable that a 'charge' or other such contact is ignored if the final position of your unit is out of contact with that unit.

Hope that helps,

Ark

[MartinG]

Arken is correct

[andyjp]

I bow to Arken's wisdom