Trafalgar

Ship Titles

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Ship Titles

Postby sidney » Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:32 pm

A bit of a beginners question. If the Royal Navy ships are all HMS..........., what titles would the French and Spanish navies use. Im printing small labels for my ships and HMS Hero sounds grand but Neptune or San Rafael seems a little plain.
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Re: Ship Titles

Postby MTUCache » Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:36 pm

No pre-titles that I know of for French or Spanish fleets.

It would be tough to come up with a consistent "His Majesties Ship" for those two fleets in particular, as during this time period those two countries were going through some very serious political turmoil.

In the span of 1792-1815 (just twenty-three years) the french government was controlled by a monarchy of the Bourbons (King Louis XVI), the National Convention (under Robespierre after the bloody revolution), the Directory (during the Thermidorean Reaction), the Consolate (under Bonaparte), Napoleon Bonaparte himself as Emperor, back to the Bourbons (King Louis XVIII), back to Napoleon (during the Hundred Days after he escaped his first imprisonment on Elba), abdicated to Napoleon's son (Napoleon II) for a few weeks (after Napoleon surrendered and was banished to St. Helena, during which time Napoleon II was a four year old boy and not even in the country, being the daughter of an Austrian Duchess who fled back to Austria when Napoleon was exiled the first time), and finally back again to Louis XVIII when the Allies finally took Paris and restored the Bourbons to the throne.

Likewise during that same period the Spanish monarchy changed hands from another section of the House of Bourbon, starting with Charles IV in 1807, passing to his estranged son Ferdinand VII for a couple of months before Napoleon placed his brother on the throne (Joseph I) for a few years (controlling very little, and barely managing to hold onto his title, let alone manage the Spanish Navy), and back to Ferdinand VII (as a political appeasement to the anti-French Allies by Napoleon) in 1813.

Not only was there no consistent "His Majesty" to credit the navies with, but the entire concept of having a king was in the air as the peasants, middle-class, upper-class, militias, and military were all revolting against the government at one point or another. The ships were literally controlled by whatever faction happened to be in power that week, or whoever the Admiral/Captain in charge of the ship believed to be coming to power in the near future. The political intrigue at this point in history is quite a story, and honestly it's amazing that anyone was organized enough to keep track of what ships there were in the fleet, let alone direct them where to go and what to do.

Long answer to a simple question... sorry... :D

Perhaps "Le Neptune" would sound a bit more grand???
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Re: Ship Titles

Postby sidney » Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:17 pm

I was hoping that at least the Dons were under some kind of moinarchy and the French between the Nile and Trafalgar so under Boney as Emperor. Ah well another example of the poor standing of Johnny foreigners ships didnt even have a proper title.
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Re: Ship Titles

Postby MTUCache » Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:02 pm

Well, I suppose there's nothing to stop you from going ahead and naming them whatever you'd like. Perhaps just pre-title them as "Boney's ..." or "His Emperor's ..." or put the colors of their flags on either side of the name along the side of the base.
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Re: Ship Titles

Postby francis » Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:43 am

Pretty certain there are no prenames for the French. But why would you want them with such great heroic names as 'Vengeur De Peuple' or 'Tyrannicide' or 'Sans Cullote'?

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Re: Ship Titles

Postby TonyStafford » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:14 am

francis wrote:Pretty certain there are no prenames for the French. But why would you want them with such great heroic names as 'Vengeur De Peuple' or 'Tyrannicide' or 'Sans Cullote'?

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Sans Cullote! Hmm I think I am beginning to see how your mind works. But shouldn't it be Sans Cullotes as they normally come as a pair?

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Re: Ship Titles

Postby francis » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:55 am

Yes but the Mob didnt wear fancy pants (Sans Cullotes), a member of the Mob would be singular (San Cullote).

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Re: Ship Titles

Postby armchairviking » Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:37 pm

sidney wrote:A bit of a beginners question. If the Royal Navy ships are all HMS..........., what titles would the French and Spanish navies use. Im printing small labels for my ships and HMS Hero sounds grand but Neptune or San Rafael seems a little plain.


I am afraid it is Le , La or L' only for the French :( I don't know if Spanish ships could be pre-fixed with "El". The Santísima Trinidad was nicknamed "El Ponderoso" due to the weight of her guns, so high above her waterline, made her sail poorly.

I expect you have thought of this but if you are doing labels it is handy to put the number of guns in brackets after the name :D
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Re: Ship Titles

Postby sidney » Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:01 pm

No need with the Trafalgar rules as each ship has its own data card so you just need to link the ship to the card (at this rate i am going to charge warhammer historical for advertising)
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Re: Ship Titles

Postby armchairviking » Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:37 pm

sidney wrote:No need with the Trafalgar rules as each ship has its own data card so you just need to link the ship to the card (at this rate i am going to charge warhammer historical for advertising)


Maybe but the number of guns gives added identity to the ship IMHO. Also you may end up playing against someone using a different set of rules if that's not heresy to say so :shock:
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Re: Ship Titles

Postby sidney » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:32 am

Ah good point, well presented. Its unlikely that I will play another set of rules but the character sounds sweet..HMS Agamemnon (64)
Last edited by sidney on Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ship Titles

Postby Guy » Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:34 am

A little research will turn up dozens of ship names. I once saw a book listing all the Royal Naval vessels for this period and their fates.

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Re: Ship Titles

Postby frpat » Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:57 am

[quote="MTUCache"]

on Elba), abdicated to Napoleon's son (Napoleon II) for a few weeks (after Napoleon surrendered and was banished to St. Helena, during which time Napoleon II was a four year old boy and not even in the country, being the daughter of an Austrian Duchess who fled back to Austria when Napoleon was exiled the first time),

Ummm...I'm moderately certain that Napoleon II wasn't anyone's daughter. :lol:

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Re: Ship Titles

Postby frpat » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:08 pm

"I am afraid it is Le , La or L' only for the French :( I don't know if Spanish ships could be pre-fixed with "El". The Santísima Trinidad was nicknamed "El Ponderoso" due to the weight of her guns, so high above her waterline, made her sail poorly.

Hav enever come across any equivalent to he British "HMS" in either the French or Spanish navies - though to be fair, I've really only seen British sources, so it is quite likely that there may have been something (*Thinks: in Nap naval fiction, you often see the phrase "His Britannic Majesty's Ship" - possibly indicative of similar usage in other nations?*)

Curiously enough, despite the huge number of guns on the Santissima, IIRC she actually threw a lesser weight of shot in her broadside than many ships with fewer guns - many o fth e"extra" above say, 110 were only 3 or 4 pounders - not much use against a ship of the line. I have a breakdown of her guns somewhere (in storage for the moment, but should be accessible in the next day or so).

"I expect you have thought of this but if you are doing labels it is handy to put the number of guns in brackets after the name "

I seem to remember that this is how the Brits often described their ships - "Improbable, Seventy Four" etc.
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Re: Ship Titles

Postby frpat » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:12 pm

Guy wrote:A little research will turn up dozens of ship names. I once saw a book listing all the Royal Naval vessels for this period and their fates.

Guy


Possibly Lavery - The Ship of the Line. Vol. I: The development of the battlefleet 1650 - 1850. Also has alot of info on various changes in armament, refits, etc. Vol II is rather dryer, dealing with ship design, etc.
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Re: Ship Titles

Postby Mattblack » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:35 pm

I write such details on the underside of the base, that way there is a small air of mystery for your opponent, after all many 74s looked similar. This way if you want them to represent an 80 or a 64 (at a push) for a specific scenario you dont get confused. I also like my bases to be nice and 'clean' .

I suppose that if you don't put specific ensigns on them they can serve several navies, many ships were captured and reused. The Birtish prticualrly liked French ships becasue of their design. Some ships were recaptured by their original owners too. I must admit though that I don't do this as the flags are a nice touch.
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Re: Ship Titles

Postby armchairviking » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:47 pm

Mattblack wrote:I write such details on the underside of the base, that way there is a small air of mystery for your opponent, after all many 74s looked similar. This way if you want them to represent an 80 or a 64 (at a push) for a specific scenario you dont get confused. I also like my bases to be nice and 'clean' . .


Personally, I have a bad memory so I would be forever looking under the base to see what it was and then potentially losing it's exact position :roll:

Mattblack wrote:I suppose that if you don't put specific ensigns on them they can serve several navies, many ships were captured and reused. The Birtish prticualrly liked French ships becasue of their design. Some ships were recaptured by their original owners too. I must admit though that I don't do this as the flags are a nice touch.


Yes I believe French 74s were regarded as superior to British 74s
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Re: Ship Titles

Postby armchairviking » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:45 pm

Guy wrote:A little research will turn up dozens of ship names. I once saw a book listing all the Royal Naval vessels for this period and their fates.

Guy


Otto von Pivka's "Navies of the Napolonic Era" has all this. I was perusing it last night. It's an excellent book for this period :D
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Re: Ship Titles

Postby blimp » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:11 pm

armchairviking wrote:Yes I believe French 74s were regarded as superior to British 74s


As i've read the two designs were partly based of the Navies differing traditional theatres of combat. The Brits had more stubby, sturdily built ships suitable for beating up in a rough North Sea. The French had more stretched 74's that were faster in a more 'Meditteranean' environment. However, after a couple of cruises the french hulls tended to need work (over and above just cleaning off seaweed etc) to keep them in decent condition.
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Re: Ship Titles

Postby Bosun » Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:41 pm

Apparently the British liked the French ships so much they kept as many as they could! There were three at Trafalgar.
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