How important is it for a system to be 'supported' ?

[David Knight]

Given the demise of Warhammer Historical will that mean that you will stop using the rules because they are no longer supported by the publishers?

The concept rather baffles me. No rules are supportd indefinately. I have rules and supplements and don't need anything else to play, other than a willing opponent.

[Leondegrande]

Definetly not stopping

Rules are very good, lists are more out than can be played, old supplements are still fantastic and we did some kind of napoleonic supplement which works very good and will make some more (sengoku jidai next).

This way I also will have more money for figures

Cheers
Olaf

[Matt1066]

It's probably not that important.

What is important is a desire to play the game and, for me, that faded some timne ago.

Long live War & Conquest!

Regards

Matt

[scrivs]

I'll still keep playing WAB and will still keep organising WAB events so it will not affect me. I'll also play a bit of Hail Caesar and a bit of Saga.

[fisher40k]

I think as long as this Forum supports WAB - with FAQ and Addenda, then it will still be played.

I haven't tried WaC yet - must buy a copy at Partizan on Sunday, but I do like Hail Caesar which looks and works well for Larger battles, not so convinced by Clash of Empires.

In the end I will play the games I can get opponents for, my main criteria is I prefer 28mm and certain periods.

An army is an army and what I have for WAB seems to work fine for other systems.

I think the problem with loosing Publisher support, is that WAB will not generate new blood without a book to buy, but that was already happening with the On-line only sales policy.

What I have seen is there is still a lot enthusiasm for Historical Gaming and especially Ancients - just look at the success of SAGA.

With Manufacturer support such as GB and SAGA and Warlord and HC I think we will still see exciting things to play.

[redben]

As has been said, it all but shuts the door to new players. I don't think it'll make too much difference in the short-term but over the next few years there'll be a drift to other games.

[Gerontius]

More or less exactly my thoughts. I'm very happy with the regular WAB opponents I currently have and with the WAB events I'm planning to attend in the next year or so, but I'd like to keep persuading disaffected WHFB players to switch to ancients. Without a WAB rulebook easily available it's going to be very hard to sell the system to them, and for that reason I can see us all slowly drifting towards CoE or WaC.

[ZeroTwentythree]

Minimum practical "support" for a game like WAB to keep going:

1. The rulebook should be available for purchase/download.

2. If the game is going to be based on army lists, then a complete selection of army lists must be available for purchase/download.

3. Errata/addenda must be available for download.


If WAB was mostly played as hosted participation or demo style games, most of those wouldn't be necessary, as all you'd need is a guy running the game to be familiar with the rules. But that's never really been a popular way of playing WAB. WAB players play competitive style pick up games or tournaments, all based on points, army lists, and arguing over rules. You need the above rules & documents for that.

As others have said, it will also be virtually impossible for new players to join in as well, limiting the game to existing players minus the ever increasing number of those who lose interest or wander off. That, in a very practical way, spells the death of WAB.

I've had a lot going on, and my friends and I haven't played lately. (I did run some demo games at Cold Wars.) But we were just starting up again. Some guys are getting together this weekend, and a few of us were planning on playing at an annual gaming & cookout weekend coming up. I was finally about to buy AoA2 -- now I can't. That right there is going to kill it for me -- and I'm a long time supporter (since the beginning!) not a new player. I apparently have just lost out, since it wasn't advertized that AoA was a "limited time offer."

[Leondegrande]

But wasn't it hard already with the AoA layout desaster?

My hope is for a high quality pdf (for rulesbook and AoA) which are updated with errata and all changes and more lists added frequently. Depends on what FW/GW is allowing and Martin Gibbins is willing to do (not alone, but as important part). If that works additional supplements in high well known WAB quality should be the main goal

Do not ask what WAB can do for you, but what you can do for WAB!

(something like this ).

Cheers
Olaf
(still member of the WAB rescue team, german division)

[recceboss]

Zerotwentythree - if you want to buy a copy of AoA2 pm me & we'll work something out.
I don't like it - the lists I bought it for were very disappointing - I'm going back to the ones in the RB.

Dave

[ZeroTwentythree]

My hope is for a high quality pdf (for rulesbook and AoA) which are updated with errata and all changes and more lists added frequently. Depends on what FW/GW is allowing and Martin Gibbins is willing to do (not alone, but as important part). If that works additional supplements in high well known WAB quality should be the main goal

That relies on one of two things happening. Either GW producing and making available a PDF version of their rules, AoA, etc. or for them to either turn a blind eye to (out outright support for) third parties making these copyrighted and trademarked materials available. I don't think either is realistic.

As far as third party, fan written lists & supplements, these have been around for as long as the game has, but have never had widespread support or approval within the gaming community, as the obsession with what's "official" is too entrenched.

Take for example the fact that a massive majority of players preferred to play with (but still bitch about) a broken Samurai list, rather than adopt an unofficial "fixed" list.

By all means, people should keep playing the game, adapting it & using house rules. I'm just saying that as a popular game or one in which existing players hope to attract new blood, especially with the intention of running tournaments or points based games, this is the last nail in the coffin. It was already suffering when FW was giving it what "official" support it could muster, taking even that sad effort away will only make it worse.


recceeboss: Thanks for the offer, but considering my comments above, if I'm going to spend money on a game, I'd prefer invest in CoE or W&C rather than throw more at a dead one.

[socalwarhammer]

As a CoE player and HC player, I guess I will throw my two cents in here. HC is a great set of rules for a big game. But if I was (and I am) planning a game to replace WAB it would have to be CoE. As of this moment in time, CoE is the most supported set of rules for a tournament style system. With free PDFs online, it does seem to be here for the long haul. Nothing against Crusader and W&C, but I need a replacement for WAB and CoE is the closest and most supported (with lists and supplements) at this point in time.

[Axebreaker]

Very important if want the system to continue to grow and stay relevant. The bottom line is once the rulebooks are no longer available to purchase the new player pool seriously dries up and current players just drift off for various reasons until your left with a much smaller core group of players making games harder and harder to come by.

Christopher

[WABWargamerabbit]

I second SoCalwarhammer's thoughts...

Played one game of HC. Enjoyed the differences from the WAB and COE games and I will play again. As for larger games, I had no WAB2 or COE problems with 5-6k point per side battles. Even at local conventions these massive games run well to 1st time gamers. A good GM and scenario (historical or not) makes all the difference.

But this player has gone to COE in recent time. The COE system is supported on line (big time+). New lists across the timeline of history are published as .pdfs about every 3-4 months on the COE (GEG) site. Even better, the list and game designers are very willing to change and/or update a published list directly on the site. If the list is goofed, they fix it. Publishing supplements like Rise and Fall Persia and Age of Ravens. Chariot era, Early Greek/Troy and Medieval supplement books in the works or advance stage discussions. List comments and discussion points are welcome directly on the GEG/COE site... Rules questions are discussed and answered just like the WAB forum. Errata published directly as .pdfs and posted on the site (and even updated). I hope W&C and HC do the same for their games on their sites.

COE and WAB2 are close cousins. So much so that remembering the difference between them is the trick.
Creating armies via COE is simple. My teenager son has no problems and he isn't any form of an ancient gamer or history buff. WWII stuff no problem for him, the difference between a Spartan and a Persian levy.... he doesn't care at his age. But roster up an ancient army using COE is simple ...Command, Core, Support/Skirmish and maybe Allies selections...unlike WAB2.0 which does require a knowledge of the % system and what the units/ formations/troop types are and their battlefield role. Unit sizes are stated with a range # of miniature. So that extra large Roman Legionary unit vs extra large barbarian matchup isn't seen on the tabletop.

I think the best times for the ancient gaming world are ahead. W&C, HC, SAGA and COE will be battling it out for the former WAB crown. Most likely there will be no winner... just lots of gaming joy (published material) for the ancient gamers to feast upon. I say support them all, just pick you own private winner.

WR

[Duc Jehan]

I'll stick to WAB as long as I don't see anything similar - a similar rules system isn't the same as having strong flavoured supplement and S&C. I'm not really interest in tournament either, and so...

[Harry]

My local opponents and I have played WAB over 10 years in time, now. We recently got our old fart hands on a copy of WAB2. We have dived into it. The rules are improved over WAB1.5

There was and still are enough local players to enjoy WAB2 with or without local support. Since USA indies are not allowed to sell copies of WAB2, IMHO there is no problem with whatever UK company pretending there are no indie stores in the USA.

I do wonder how many more copies of whatever Warhammer Historical rules would have been sold in the USA if stores in the USA had been allowed to stock/sell WAB2 and whatever else.

I am sorry, but the whole way that selling WAB2 was offered to us USA wargamers..."No USA local stores in the USA allowed to sell our rules". Yes, I am bitter about it.

[Godwin]

Well they have paid the price for their arrogance, they are no more. I was under the impression they no longer sold in any stores but sold online only. It's ashamed, they are a good set of rules that I had almost exclusivley used for over ten years
-and several of the supplaments. I will still play some WAB games but they will eventually fade as the rulebooks are no longer available to new recruits. I have moved on-got my copy of War and Conquest on the way.

[redben]

It was direct only as that's how FW sell all their stuff. There's no arrogance as GW could care less whether WHH was in existence or not.

[NurgleHH]

There is no chance for new players to get a copy of WAB. So, this is the end of the system. Some people will still play it, but after a while only the hardcore-fans do so. The rest will change to an other system. It is sad, but the normal way. See systems like Starship troopers...

[Leondegrande]

....and Mordheim, Blood Bowl, Battletech or WRG 6th