How to plan a WotR project?

[ZeroTwentythree]

I sold off my Burgundians when my employment situation became desperate, but now that I'm once again employed I'd like to start thinking about a late medieval project again (time permitting -- and I don't have much at the moment.) I've considered picking back up with Burgundians and one or more of their opponents -- possibly French or Low Countries (Liege, etc.) instead of the typical Swiss. But I've also always had an interest in the Wars of the Roses.

So if I were to work on a Wars of the Roses project, I think what puzzles me is how to go about the organization & painting. Do most people paint armies for a particular battle? Or paint a bunch of mixed & "generic" rank & file and then keep a large selection of command figures and banners around and use them as appropriate for a particular battle?

Note, I'm interested in doing a mix of historical battles as well as speculative "what-if" and/or a-historic games as well. These will most likely be going on multi-figure bases and be used for more than one set of rules.

[scarabminiatures]

One of our War & Conquest players has a huge collection of figures, viewable in our yahoo group.

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/warandconquest/

He would be worth asking. He is working through all the principal Personalities and quite a few of the lesser ones as well.

Once I have got together with him for a War of the Roses game in the next month or so, I hope to start my own, smaller project as well!

My experience of other collectors (for WOTR and ECW) is they paint some generic figures, and then swap out the banners when needed.

[argh]

I was just about to say that Rob!

Yes, paint up generic figures, then swop the command bases around.
The bonus is that you get to paint more exciting character models

(buy the way, I have 5 boxes of Perry plastic WoTR and Mercenaries sitting in my loft doing nothing, if your interested in giving me an offer?)

[argh]

I should add, that my favorite army is the late Yorkist Pretenders.
As a painter, this gives the most varied WotR force, using Irish, Germans and the normal Bow/Bill units!

[ZeroTwentythree]

Thanks for the replies.

So, for example, I am most likely going to base infantry with 4 figures on a 40x40 base. Wondering if I should paint all 4 figures the same colors, but vary them between each base, or if I should just have a mix on each base.

In the case of the former, I guess I'm thinking of it in terms of each base representing the retinue of a certain lord, and then multiple retinues being combined into a fighting formation.

[ZeroTwentythree]

(buy the way, I have 5 boxes of Perry plastic WoTR and Mercenaries sitting in my loft doing nothing, if your interested in giving me an offer?)

I'm in the US, so I'm not certain how practical that is when postage is figured in.

I should add, that my favorite army is the late Yorkist Pretenders.
As a painter, this gives the most varied WotR force, using Irish, Germans and the normal Bow/Bill units!

I like that as well, but from a historical point of view it's not something I find very interesting. Just sort of a footnote to the larger struggle. (On the other hand, that's also how most of the books I've read have treated it -- so I may just be overly influenced by what I've read...)

[argh]

Well yes that’s a good point, it is a little off topic so to speak.
But I still find it interesting reading!
Didn't the 'Pretender' (Lambert Simnel)end his days working in the royal kitchens?
The battle of Stoke Field was a major battle.

Taking an overview of all the major battles, it appears as though treachery and the weather play the biggest role in battle outcome!

I'll get a quote for postage if your interested?
5 boxes of plastics are very light?

Tim

[ZeroTwentythree]

Well yes that’s a good point, it is a little off topic so to speak.
But I still find it interesting reading!
Didn't the 'Pretender' (Lambert Simnel)end his days working in the royal kitchens?
The battle of Stoke Field was a major battle.

I believe you are correct about the kitchens, as I recall thinking that it was one of several merciful acts of Henry, which sort of tempered some of the bloodshed (post battle executions, mysteriously disappearing/dying prisoners or princes, etc.) that sometimes occurred in the WotR.

I don't disagree that it was a major battle, and also had some interesting elements like the desperate fight of the continental mercenaries, etc. Also provides a good excuse to use a lot of the the Perry mercenary kits too.

Taking an overview of all the major battles, it appears as though treachery and the weather play the biggest role in battle outcome!

That's a bonus for wargaming, especially when the treachery is used well in multi-player games. One of my favorite ancient/medieval games was when I got to run the Stanley faction in a multi-player DBM game at one of my old club's game days.

I'll get a quote for postage if your interested?
5 boxes of plastics are very light?

If you'd like. If I buy them here, it's $29/box. I wasn't planning on buying anything more until I paint what I've already got, plus catch up on some other necessities. But if you're dealing... Let me know. Are they all theWotR infantry, or any of the mercenaries or men at arms?

[ZeroTwentythree]

Just found a few old WI WotR scenarios online...

http://www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/Do ... -Roses.pdf

[stuartmcc]

Brilliant find, cheers. We recently did an umpire led scenario for Bosworth, with Stanley and Northumberland poised to act in their own interests at the most opportune moment!

[James Woodward]

I went the other way, i based my WotR force around Percy/Northumberland. It was all about personal advancement for the major families at the end of the day with the little people caught in the middle.

Stoke Field is only really a spat* after the WotR. I don't recall reading anywhere that the Yorkists had much in the way of traditional bow/bill troops. Irish and German Mercs [not Pike!]; the Yorkshire folk, where they hoped to recruit from, quite sensibly saying "on your way old son and do let us know how you got on ..."

James

* the King's Van shot the unarmoured Irish to pieces and then finished the Germans, who fought bravely by all accounts, without having to bother the main Battle

Thanks, James

[ZeroTwentythree]

Yes, but as gaming is all about "what-ifs" and taking your own shot at producing a different outcome, it's still viable material. Like I said, though, more of a footnote to me and not something I'm immediately interested in.

German Mercs [not Pike!]

Can you elaborate on how they were equipped? I'm honestly not that informed on the battle beyond the basics.

Yorkshire folk, where they hoped to recruit from, quite sensibly saying "on your way old son and do let us know how you got on ..."

"Oh no. Not again..."

[James Woodward]

Heavily armoured with DHW i believe

Nothing wrong with "whats if's" within reason. The trouble with the old WAB AofCh WotR/Stoke Field list was that people tended to cherry-pick all the better type troops for the Rebels so that the Pros outnumbered the Cons.

So you never saw (or even heard of) someone wanting to do a horde of unarmoured Irish with a small core [1 x unit?] of German Mercenaries; the latter almost always armed with Pike, as that was the best weapon in the book despite that fact it was rarely (ever?) used in WotR

But you can't trump "what if"

James

[ZeroTwentythree]

Thanks for the info. I understood the numbers were small, but had always assumed that, as mercenaries, were pike, crossbow, and/or gun armed.


I've got another question that seems a bit basic. Most of what I've read has been political history, and what military history I've read has either been large scale (narratives of the battles in a very general sense) or extremely small scale (details of equipment, armour, etc.) So there's one piece in the "middle" I'm not clear on:

As I understand it, battles generally opened with an exchange of arrow (and sometimes gun) fire, but were then generally resolved as a big melee. Did the archers generally engage in the melee? I'm having a hard time imagining 90% of the troops just stepping aside and watching while the billmen and heavies.

Also, any recommendations on books specifically covering the military aspect of the WotR would be appreciated.

[argh]

I made a really nice 'Pretender' list based on a figure ratio of 1:50
I used the WotR list from AoC.

Stoke Field (as I understand it) had 8000 men on the Yorkist side, this worked out at 160 figures.
I'm only writing here from memory, but I think it was,
4000 (80) lightly armed Irish.
2000 (40) Swiss/German Mercenaries, with pike/xbow/handgun.
2000 (40) retinue, with bill/longbow.

I'm pretty sure I got it to 2400pts with characters etc (the German mercenary general had a cool name which i've fogot now, Schwarz?)

It was very satisfying making an historical list fit a basic wargame army.