Alternative Japanese list

[Pijlie]

Posted a new version, changed the cannon rules.

[TimoftheC]

Hi Pijlie, my compliments on the list you've produced (which I've only recently found).

I like what you've done and am hoping to con....erm, I mean persuade one of my gaming buddies to let me try it out on em in the near future. Personally, I am more interested in the earlier periods, although the army that I have is based on the ii clan who were to become vassals of the Togugawa.

Has anybody played with the lists at all and if so, do they have any feed back on it?

The only real comment I have on the lists pijlie without actually playing it yet is the warband 1 rule for the samurais. I understand the reasoning behind it in that samurais could be impetuous, however, it seems to undermine the main code of the Samurai which was obedient service to ones Lord at the cost ones life. I know that this code was in conflict with the Samurai who also fought for personal glory but some of the most celebrated of Samurais and some of the greatest stories are based on Samurais who followed the orders of their Lords to the death i.e. Kusunoki Masashige and the battle of Minatogawa.

I therefore wonder if throwing a one on a six sided dice is really representative of the true nature of Samurais and their warfare. Perhaps a rule where a Samurai unit in a position to charge another unit MUST take a leadership test on the Lords Leadership to see if they continue to follow their Lord's wishes (similar to the current rule for Samurai characters). A failure means their desire for personal glory outweighs there obedience to their Lord and they charge in, whilst a pass means that they are obedient for now. That way, if the Lord dies, leaves the battlefield or is dishonored, the Samurai will basically revert to seeking personal glory (and vengeance) and run amok.

Just a thought and I'm not sure how practical it is but as I said, not sure if the current warband rule 1 is the correct way to go.

Tim

[Pijlie]

I based the impeteousness (impetuosity?) of the samurai on frequent historical examples where samurai formations turned out to be difficult to control in battle and advanced without (or even despite) orders.

My second consideration was not to invent too many new rules. So I always looked for existing rules to model the behaviour I wanted, hence the choice for Warband 1.

There might be better ways to portray this, but as a long-time Celt player I have always been partial to Warband 1

Besides, samurai turned out to be a lot more unpredictable than the "our duty is to obey" archetype often portrayed in movies and comics. Samurai fled, betrayed and generally did stupid and immoral things like any soldier type in history. But their agressiveness in battle is legendary in any case. So much so, that they even tried to impress their Lord without being ordered (or meant) to. That's what I tried to achieve here.

I haven't received much playtesting feedback so far, so everything is welcome.

[David Knight]

Interesting stuff well explained.

A couple of observations

I don't like the parrying rule - it adds extra complication for little real benefit. If it is in the whole unit should have to do it or none - WAB represents unit rather than individual behavior. i would just make the katana a 2 handed weapon

Giving Asigaru the option of a samuri leader seeems a bit odd. If some Asigaru benefit from better leadership why not have an option for higher grade units with a higher leadership value?

Overall a very good effort - I hope to give the lists a go when I get my army sorted

[eaglestandard]

Hi guys,

I haven't actually played WAB for a couple of years now although I still own a Republician Roman and Saracen army.When I first started playing WAB I thought oh what a great set of rules, they were fun and fast and a vast improvement on the old test tables of WRG.The original WAB army lists AoA were ok, but then GW who at the end of the day are WAB rubbing their hands thought Oh we'll bring out supplement army lists with a book for each part of history.Some of these army lists as with others that GW produce are flights of fantasy, fun, but not to be taken seriously or historically.
I don't mean to offend anyone who research and write these Supplement Books, but come on....please keep it real.
As David Knight knows I once owned a Samurai Army taken from the AoA lists these were Dixon figures and I've read quite alot on Japanese history.I have been thinking of replacing it using Perry's miniatures, but I thought I'd wait until the "Divine Wind" supplement book comes out.
These are just my general thoughts on samurai warfare though the ages.....firstly early period.....most samurai were mounted horse archers, who were expert horse riders and being able to fire their longbows while mounted.Samurai armour of this period was made of lacquered bamboo sections tied with cords so I don't think these should be classed as HC, but if you like a Light HC being able to move faster than HC and also having the ability to move, fire and then evade from enemy all in the same turn.The other samurai weapon was the katana which again would need both hands to weild while on horseback.I don't think this deadly weapon even though it was the mark of the samurai could be weilded with the same effect as if on foot, so to represent this I'd give it a -1 to the samurai strengh while mounted.Other weapons used while mounted was a naginata and another polearm with a hook on the end used to pull a enemy off his mount.The naginata was simular to the medieval glave in that it was light, being able to use overhead and weilded with ease and used mainly as a slashing weapon as it had roughly a 10" curved blade on the end of the pole.Again these would be a two handed weapon, but not used with the same effect as if dismounted.
Samurai on foot, again I'd class these as LHI at least in the early period armed with either longbow and katana, yari and katana or naginata.The Japanese Longbow shouldn't be in the same class as the Medieval English Longbow and should thus have a slightly shorter range, but keeping the same BS of 4.For the Katana and Naginata on foot I'd leave it as it is and that is each figure gets two Dice in combat and only Naginata's get a double saving throw to reflect the chance to parry blow's.Obviously the naginata will cost a extra point more than the katana.
Ashigaru of this period were little better than armed peasants, counting as LMI and armed with the Yari (thrusting spear).They weren't a regular fighting force and were mainly land workers, who at time of war would be called up to fight for their lords much like the feudal system in the middle ages.
Warrior Monks, both Early and Late period's were fanatic's, armed and armoured the same as samurai.Ninja were hired assassins and to my knowledge never fought as a battlefield unit, so this is GW'S fantasy unit
Ronin, these were lordless samurai who sold there services to the highest bidder, again armed and armoured the same as samurai, but with a throw of a 1 on a D6 must dice again, with a score of 1 they move towards or if in charge reach, charge the nearest friendly unit, on a 2 they move towards the nearest table edge and if this takes them off table are lost never to return.On a score of 3 they remain halted and refuse to move, on a 4 or 5 they move as normal and on a 6 move towards or charge the nearest enemy unit.
If a champion is brought these must declare themselves at the start of the game and offer personel combat to a enemy champion, sub-general or C-in-C.
During the Mongol Invasions of Japan in 1274 and 1281 the Mongol Commanders were bemused with young samurai riding out, announcing themselves and their family's before calling out and offering hand to hand combat to all takers.Unfortunatly the mongol's were not used to this sort of chivalry and the single riders were usually met with a hail of arrows.
Late period - Mounted samurai armour moves to chain mail and small armoured plates so HC armed the same, but in fewer numbers.Dismounted samurai armour HI, but still fight and move in loose order like LHI, same weapons, but with fewer if any longbows.
Ashigaru were more organised, better armoured with most still being armed with the Yari, but some trained to use the Matchlock Arquebus and yes I would allow these to be commanded by a samurai captain or the likes.At the battle of Nagashino in 1575, Oda Nobunaga had 3,000 such Ashigaru under the command of Honda Tadakatsu with a number of other captains from Oda's horo-shu (elite bodyguard) and these were also supported by Yari armed Samurai behind the protection of a bamboo stockade.
Warrior Monks of the later period should have their own army list, fanatic's as before....
As for cannon's well as with the Ninja's I've never heard or read of these being used in battle so again this could be another of those GW Fantasy thing's.

Hope I haven't bored you all too much....cheers and as I said just my thoughts.......Ray.

[Pijlie]

Well, first thank you for your impressive reply. It does however seems to be more an alternative to my alternative than a comment on my list, but treating it as the latter, I like to respond to some of your comments:

My philosophy while writing the list was to invent as few new rules as possible. So I always tried to find an existing rule or troop type to simulate something for this list. Not only would a great number of new rules be confusing, it would also IMO needlessly complicate gameplay. That is why I stayed away from a lot of your ideas (extra dice, adapted Strengths and such) This is a matter of taste, but I like things simple and that is one of the reasons I like WAB. If you think WAB is complicated, read DBM But not being perfect, I still kept some fluff around the katana ....

firstly early period.....most samurai were mounted horse archers, (...) so I don't think these should be classed as HC,

I didn´t class them Heavy Cavalry. In the early period all mounted samurai are Light Cavalry. Which in my view is a way of fighting, not equipment, like the Arthurian armoured cavalry who still fought as Light horse. They only became heavy shock cavalry after the first Mongol Invasion, or at least that´s my theory.

The other samurai weapon was the katana which again would need both hands to weild while on horseback.I don't think this deadly weapon even though it was the mark of the samurai could be weilded with the same effect as if on foot, so to represent this I'd give it a -1 to the samurai strengh while mounted.

That´s why I took away the +1S option on horseback.

The Japanese Longbow shouldn't be in the same class as the Medieval English Longbow and should thus have a slightly shorter range, but keeping the same BS of 4

This would be a new rule, which to me is undesirable in itself, but also one for which there is no historical basis. Japanese bows turned out to be inferior to Mongol and Korean bows in the two instances the samurai met a foreign opponent. So treating them as composite bow is probably too much already (but shortbow too harsh), let alone a S4.

Ashigaru of this period were little better than armed peasants, counting as LMI (...) Ninja were hired assassins and to my knowledge never fought as a battlefield unit, so this is GW'S fantasy unit

I can´t place the abbreviation LMI. Militia? There´s something to be said for that, especially in the early period, but would introduce another troop type. That´s why I went for the generic Ashigaru with low BS, I and Ld. This would admittedly probably sell them short in the later periods.

Your remark on Ninja is not correct I´m afraid. Ninja were regularly used as insurgents in sieges and AFAIK several times on the battlefield as disruptive skirmishers, by Oda Nobunaga amongst others.

Late period - Mounted samurai armour moves to chain mail and small armoured plates so HC armed the same, but in fewer numbers.Dismounted samurai armour HI, but still fight and move in loose order like LHI, same weapons, but with fewer if any longbows.
Ashigaru were more organised, better armoured with most still being armed with the Yari, but some trained to use the Matchlock Arquebus

Samurai horse definitely fought as shocktroops in the late period, so indeed Heavy Cavalry. Samurai foot was trained to fight in formation in these times, as well as in loose order. The individual samurai roaming the battlefield collecting heads was long gone by then and was expected to hold the line in battle. Not that they always complied, but still. Frequent reports of the Korean wars refer to individuals (not the majority) collecting heads and most head/ear/nose-collecting was done after the battle, which shows much more organisation and disciplin than in the early periods.

As for cannon's well as with the Ninja's I've never heard or read of these being used in battle so again this could be another of those GW Fantasy thing's.

Allthough I included cannon for the sake of completeness, they were actually used a lot in sieges and at least once in a field battle: Sekigahara. So here again no fantasy I´m afraid. I took some care to remove the fantasy elements from the lists, allthough some fancy still lingers, like the special abilities of the katana

[Guy]

Allthough I included cannon for the sake of completeness, they were actually used a lot in sieges and at least once in a field battle: Sekigahara.

Really?

Guy

[eaglestandard]

Hi Pijlie,

Unfortunatly I hadn't seen your new list before writing my post on samurai warfare, but I just wanted to air my thoughts having read a great deal on Japanese warfare from the early Gempi Wars though to the Korean Invasion 1592 - 1598 and ending with the battle of Sekigahara 1600.
Thank you for your reply and comments on my post, firstly I didn't say WAB was complicated, far from it after playing 6th edition WRG for a good number of years WAB was a refreshing change and fun to play.It was the new Supplement Books I didn't like with there certain army lists or units being flights of fantasy in my opinion.
I also wasn't asking for existing rules to be changed, just that Ronin if used have to dice the same as you would for a Warband each turn and on a score of 1 on a D6 redice whats so hard and complicated about that .
Early Mounted Samurai - for early armies these should be the main percentage of any army as these would be the lords wealthiest samurai, the best armoured, expert horse riders and highly trained at firing their longbows from the saddle.Having them classed as Light Cavalry does represent their ability to move and shoot swiftly, but not their armour protection.Give them the ability to move, shoot and evade like most horse archers, but they should be able to charge into combat with their katana.
Lesser wealthy Foot Samurai should be classed as LHI with protective armour, but fighting in a looser formation and running swiftly into battle.
I am pleased you agree with the Ashigaru and the early period LMI comes from the days when I played WRG these would be better protected than light infantry, but less than medium infantry and like samurai, move and fight in loose formation.
Ninja's - hired Assassins and again I agree with you these would have been used during sieges, but not in open battle so I'd like to know your sourses on this information as I've never read anything which mention these being used in warfare as skirmishers or anything else.
Cannon's again can you supply your sourses for the use of these in regular engagements, they were possibly used in the odd late war siege and they may well have been used once in one battle right at the end of the late period, but do you warrant these being put in a army list, I think not!!!
I don't know what changes your suggesting for the Katana, but these weren't Star Wars light sabres so keep it real please and yes it was the samurai's first and foremost weapon, but they were human like everyone else.


Regards..............Ray.

[Pijlie]

OK, I looked up some sources on cannon and ninja. This is what I could find in a hurry (without resorting to Wikipedia

Cannon:
Cannon were used on the battlefield -admittedly to very little effect- at Sekigahara. Here Mitsunari ordered five cannon to fire at the attacking Tokugawa troops. (Guy and I discussed this before, even in this very thread ) See the Osprey Campaign 40 (Sekigahara). For use in sieges see Osprey Campaign 170 (Osaka 1615) where Osaka castle is bombarded with cannon and a cannonball nearly killed Hideyori´s mother!

Ninja:
Ninja were a lot more frequent on the battlefield than cannon. The Rokkaku clan used them as insurgents at Sawayama castle, the Kizawa likewise at Maibara castle, Tokugawa at Kainojo castle as insurgents and in the opposite position defending a castle near Sekigahara in 1600. Sekigahara also featured the use of ninja dropping behind enemy lines to disrupt, pretending to be wounded left behind and sneakily sniping at samurai. Finally Ninja fought at the siege of Osaka. See Osprey Warrior 64: Ninja. So at least one reference to their activity on a genuine battlefield and a lot in siege operations.

[Guy]

Perhaps I should be a little more specific. The Sengoku Jidai raged for a century and a half before Sekigahara (1600) and the arquebus was unknown in Japan until a Portuguese ship landed at Tangeshima in 1543. Its gradual introduction meant at Sekigahara, they consisted of 10% of the available troops.

Likewise with your cannon. Very rare with minimal effect. They were near useless in sieges, due to the construction of Japanese castles which would coincidentally mirror the Vauban fortifications of western europe (stone reinforced by large mounds of earth). Suggesting that cannons should be freely available for everything but that absolute latter part of this period (1600-1615) is not a good idea. It would be like me making a German army with Tiger tanks and then applying it to Early WW2, WW1 and the Franco Prussian war! If we are truly not playing fantasy here, then lets use history as our guide. Otherwise I'm brushing off Yamato Date, Benkei and Jiraiya Goketsu Monogatari (complete with shapeshifting toad magic!).

Ninja, I've less problems with them. Again they should not be universally available, only for those who historically used them.

Guy

[francis]

I think cannon and perhaps ninja should have no role or a negligable role on a samurai battlefeild. Give the player/general the choice, but severely restrict that choice to, say, one cannon, or half a dozen ninjas per 2500 points. Remember in a campaign you are likely to come across seige scenarios, assassination scenarios and the like.

I think the list as it stands has an auful lot going for it and you can quite easily make up realistic armies with them. What would I like to see?

Rules for static big drums: say a reroll of panic dice within a given radius (I simply like big drums!).

Static battle standards for the Age of War.

Simply adopt the 'stealth' rules from Age of Arfur for ninja.

Some better ashigaru (say veterans, or bs3 archer specialists, or mv5 light feet)

Veteran or elite Hatamoto mounted samurai.

A mini tournament where we could test the lists to destruction (just in the interests of research), cheesy lists, historical lists, special rules, the whole thing.

Francis (Damio)

[Pijlie]

think cannon and perhaps ninja should have no role or a negligible role on a samurai battlefield. Give the player/general the choice, but severely restrict that choice to, say, one cannon, or half a dozen ninjas per 2500 points. Remember in a campaign you are likely to come across siege scenarios, assassination scenarios and the like.

You have got a point there. However, Ninja are already prohibitively expensive and limited to one unit. The realistic use of cannon may take some more securing though. I’ll get back to that.

What would I like to see?
Rules for static big drums: say a reroll of panic dice within a given radius (I simply like big drums!).

Coincidentally I attended a Taiko concert in Leiden this weekend and got insipired. Obviously a Taiko cannot be used as a Musician, since it took two men even to carry the 4 feet taiko without undercarriage I listened to and war drums were even larger. But since it was a signalling device it might be used to enhance command range. How about this?

A Taiko drum is set up in a fixed position and may not move for the duration of the game. When the army general is within 4”of the taiko, it may be used to convey his commands to the army. Command range of the army general is doubled as long as the general is within 4”of the taiko, not engaged in combat, shooting and/or fleeing. An army may take one taiko drum (50 points). Captured taiko drums are considered destroyed for the duration of the game once captured.

Static battle standards for the Age of War.

Daimyo used enormous battle standards placed at their command post. These were so big that they could not effectively be moved but could be seen from afar. An army may take one Static Army banner INSTEAD of the normal army banner for an extra 25 points. Units within 24” of a static army banner may reroll Break tests with a +1 to their Leadership. Capturing an static army banner yields double the point value in VP.
So taking a static banner encourages defensive play in your own army but offensive play in your opponent’s.

Simply adopt the 'stealth' rules from Age of Arfur for ninja.

I know the Stealth rule, but actually I do like my version better.....

Some better ashigaru (say veterans, or bs3 archer specialists, or mv5 light feet)

I felt this would dilute the difference between samurai and ashigaru which IMHO should be there. Besides I doubt that ashigaru usually achieved the level of combat expertise that samurai reached through constant training. Ashigaru were the "grunts" of the Japanese armies after all. So I confined myself in limiting their morale troubles as time progressed.

But I'd like to know what others think about this.

Veteran or elite Hatamoto mounted samurai.

With samurai infantry I felt that it should be possible to simulate the difference between veteran and ordinary troops. I intentionally upgraded the WS and Initiative of mounted samurai (and added Expert Bowman and Parthian Shot to the mounted archers) based on the assumption that samurai cavalry would generally already be elite troops. Why else spend horses on them? Consequently I omitted veteran cavalry.

A mini tournament where we could test the lists to destruction (just in the interests of research), cheesy lists, historical lists, special rules, the whole thing.

Ah, if I only had time.....

[francis]

Why, Thank You for considering my comments.


Point taken re. Ashigaru and Hatamoto. Dont think peasant samurai were significantly better than than experienced ashigaru though, but the list is your baby.....

I think some real samurai fans could help out re. testing the lists...... Guy? Jim?

francis

[Guy]

I think some real samurai fans could help out re. testing the lists...... Guy? Jim?

The trouble is Jim and I have both seen and playtested Divine Wind. Lord knows if this'll see the light of day now which is a real real pity.

I had a lot of trouble with the original Armies of Antiquity lists (he who charges always wins...) and Rob's were a massive improvement. I haven't commented that much on these lists because of my involvement in DW.

Guy

[francis]

Guy,

You dont have to give anything away to offer an opinion. I'm sure it would be valued, and I am sure any comments would be objective and constructive.

francis

[Guy]

The trouble is I have to offer an opinion without saying 'Rob had the good idea of doing it like this...'

That tends to mean my comments come over as just being critical and not constructive as I can't comment on how its done in Divine Wind (which for the most part is how I would have done it).

Guy

[francis]

You are a hard man Guy.

francis

[Pijlie]

The trouble is Jim and I have both seen and playtested Divine Wind. Lord knows if this'll see the light of day now which is a real real pity.
I had a lot of trouble with the original Armies of Antiquity lists (he who charges always wins...) and Rob's were a massive improvement. I haven't commented that much on these lists because of my involvement in DW.

I guessed as much and I understand your position, Guy. Apart from the loyalty aspect you probably promised confidentiality as well when you started playtesting Rob´s lists.

So knowing this, any comment, however sparsely motivated will be received as constructive and in gratitude.

And cannon will be limited to 1 cannon for every (whole) 2000 points (1000 for a siege scenario?), I should think.

[T0m]

Hmm, as a possible future Samurai player I've given this list a look. I'm in absolute no condition to critisize or comment the list itself, not being a much of a history expert, but the one thing I'd like to point out is that the format of the list(s) is a bit complicated. I find myself shuffling up and down the list looking for what gear and what kind of units can be taken in which period and whatnot. It may just be a question of getting used to it, but may I suggest you make individual entries for each period rather than making a generic list from which to work on with different periods?

[francis]

A Samurai list that even comes close to offering historically based choices is, unfortunately going to be complicated: I can think of twelve possible equipment combinations for ordinary samurai, before I even start to think of bows, horses or fancy weapon combinations. Its a bugger but its one of the things that makes Samurai interesting.

francis