Advice on Orkneyinga 1000pt list

[CWCDoug]

Hi, new to WAB and thinking of starting out with an Orkneyinga list - all advice and comments welcome.

1000pts Orkneyinga

Hersir - shield, javelin - 87pts
Hersir ASB - shield, javelin - 102pts

24 Hirdmen - leader, musician, stubborn, 20 thrusting spears, 4 dhw - 466pts

12 Bondi - leader, musician, standard, throwing spear - 87pt

12 Bondi Bowmen - leader, musician - 82 pts

11 Viking pirates - leader, musician, shields, javelins, throwing spears, 5 dhw

Comes to 994 in total.

[ulfhednar101]

Hi there, its been a while since i played Vikings but if i remember right the Orkney Hird are light infantry so at 1000 points i would reduce the unit size to 13 or 16. Put your General and ASB in this unit and spend the extra points on bigger Bondi Units. I would also be tempted to drop the Bondi Bow and just arm them with the throwing spears and maybe include a unit of cheap thralls with javelins.

Thanks

[Justin]

Its an odd list, thrusting spear Stubborn Hirdmen (without a standard!). So the plan is to win drawn-out combats. But there is only one decent unit in the army, the Hird and they can't charge.

So plainly the way to beat this force is to strip away the supporting troops and then either shoot the Hird down or charge them in flank/rear. If the Hird had throwing spears then they could look to charge their enemy, break them in the first round of combat, pursue and hope to Break surrounding enemy with failed Panic checks.

[francis]

I would drop the stubborn. If you are going to put a character into the unit, it would have to be very well beaten to fail a test at the first round of combat.

I would also drop 8 of the hird, and give the unit a standard bearer. You could even go down to 14 hird plus the two characters to make a 16 man really tough unit.

I would invest these points in beefing up the bondi spear unit. If you can put a character with them to boost leadership. I seem to remember orkney bondi can have thrusting spears. Give them this option because if your opponent wants to fight anyone it will be bondi rather than the nasty hird, so you get two ranks if charged. Alternatively put your characters in the bondi unit to toughen it up.

I would, with great regret lose the archers in favour of thralls, to guard your flanks and do the skirmishing stuff. At 1000pts, skirmishers can become very important. Especially in shieldwall where we see quite a few warbands, just asking to be dragged out of position.

Viking pirates are a good unit to hold up a flank attack or really damage a dangerous opposing unit. I dont think you need the choppers. The re-roll of misses that skirmishing troops get with throwing spear is fearsome enough. Dont worry about losing this unit, just make sure it pays for itself by damaging the opposition.

hope there is something in there you can use.

francis

[CWCDoug]

Thanks guys, is this looking any better?

Hersir - shield, javelin - 87pts
Hersir ASB - shield, javelin - 102pts

16 Hirdmen - leader, musician, standard, 12 thowing spears, 4 dhw, plus 2 Berserkers - 307pts

2x 16 Bondi - leader, musician, standard, thrusting spear - 111pts each

12 Thralls - Javelins, Leader, Musician, - 58pts

12 Viking pirates - leader, musician, standard, shields, javelins, throwing spears - 195 pts

Comes to 971 in total, so still 29pts up for grabs.

[Guy]

A mate of mine runs with a very similar list, but he plays 1500. The one unit of Hird with thrusting spear and General does very well, he uses it offensively, as he can afford to lose a round of combat (stubborn) at which point the thrusting spears pay dividends - a true meat grinder. He also employs Hird in skirmish with throwing spear, typically a unit of 12 - they are a real pain, as they are stubborn skirmishers! The Bondi unit tends to be as big as he can make it and when playing 1500 you'll also see some Scots exile cavalry. Bondi Bow he tends to use as a useful skirmish screen but also offensively,they charge and usually win against my skirmishers, being WS3.

Guy

[Guy]

Berserkers are great if you're opponent doesn't know how to deal with them. Else they are a waste of points.

Guy

[Goltron]

Really? It seems to me that the best to handle them is to draw them out with cheap skirmishers, but those cost at least equal of 2 Berserkers - and taking panic in account they will rareley survive this meeting.

@ list:

I think a double handed weapon for the general is more usefull. I´d melt the Bondir into one bigger unit, 16 are a bit small and you have no army general, and if one character should join the Hirmen only one Bondir unit can benefit of the LD from the other character. And a LD6 Bondir unit is not that much worth i think. 10 Thralls and Vikings are enough, if you take a 25 strong Bondirunit some points should be available to include another small unit of Hirmen or some Bowmen. Imho the Vikings should be equiped with two hand weapons - that´s simply awesome for skirmishers (and with the high vikings stats it´s devastating). For the leader a double handed weapon is ideal.

[CWCDoug]

Thanks all, I think this is where I'm at:

Hersir - dhw - 88pts
Hersir ASB - shield, javelins - 102pts

18 Hirdmen - leader, musician, standard, stubborn, 14 thrusting spears, 4 dhw, plus 2 Berserkers - 381pts

24 Bondi - leader, musician, standard, thrusting spear - 159pts

9 Bondi Bowmen - leader, musician - 64pts

10 Thralls - Javelins, Leader, Musician, - 50pts

10 Viking pirates - leader, musician, standard, javelins, two hand weapons - 155 pts

999/1000

[Guy]

Really? It seems to me that the best to handle them is to draw them out with cheap skirmishers, but those cost at least equal of 2 Berserkers - and taking panic in account they will rareley survive this meeting.

Exactly. Wasted on a puny skirmish unit, not taking out huge expensive ranks in your army.

Guy

[Goltron]

And what now? Even in this case the Berserkers are worth their points. In the other case they are worth their points two or three times. I dont see where the Berserkers were wasted in the sense of not worth taking them.

@ list:

I think more double hander weapons for the hirdmen were usefull. The Bowmen and Thralls need no command. I´d leave also two hirdmen out and take then an additional unit of thralls.

[Justin]

Even in this case the Berserkers are worth their points.

Perhaps not. Remember that a unit has to be wiped out before you get points for it, points are scored for characters as soon as they are dead. I am happy to let my 4pt skirmishers loose on berserkers - sometimes they even roll 1's.

[Goltron]

Okay, you get a point there . But on the other hand, these skirmishers will normaly get a panic check (at LD 5 or so) and should be then often below 5 models. Also, other skirmishers might get panic too.

At all, i still don´t see why the berserkers shouldn´t be always worth taking.

[CWCDoug]

Thanks all, making the adjustment that Goltron suggested, reducing Hirds, removing commands from bows and thralls, adding a couple more dhw to Hird and adding in another unit of thralls brings the list to a round 1000pts. I shall let you know how they get on in the coming months.

Once again many thanks for taking the time to comment.

[Justin]

Okay, you get a point there . But on the other hand, these skirmishers will normaly get a panic check (at LD 5 or so) and should be then often below 5 models. Also, other skirmishers might get panic too.

Taking a panic check depends on the size of the unit and casualties caused. I have experimented with very large units of skirmishers (up to 30 in a unit) whose function in an army without cavalry is to block enemy cavalry from attacking my flanks, they won't win but they can FIBGO and stop the cavalry that way.

OK so lets assume that berserkers hit skirmishers, at 25% casualties the skirmishers take a Ld test. On a Ld 7 they are going to have a 50:50 chance of passing. Wipe the whole unit out, points are scored but no test and no one else will worry. But lets assume they fail the test and run, they have to end up within 4 inches of another friendly skirmisher unit (which does not outnumber them 2:1) to worry anything else.

So taking all that into account, I feel that berserkers lured into cheap skirmishers is a waste of the berserkers.

On the other hand, when I first started using Vikings it was against Nomad Horde armies, now expensive skirmishers are an entirely different matter. But Vikings are still a very good army, as my opponents at Warfare will find out at the end of November.

[Goltron]

Sorry, but i can not agree.

I also like using large light infantry units for that cavalry thing, think that works very well as you can reform after the fall back move and then face the cav with ranks and command. With skirmishers only not that good i think as they will never have a chance to stop the cavalry and units of 30 or so are not that cheap.

For purpose against berserkers i assume that the viking player is no total idiot and has something like skirmishing pirates or hirdmen around to bash the skirmishers out of the way. I mean, a 20 or 30 man skirmishing unit is not that small that you can lurk greatly between the battlelines to aviod this. Also, LD7 skirmishers are normally not cheap so drawing some berserkers with them out but then being killed by some of the heavy viking screening troops is not that good deal i think. Of you may use viking pirates yourself but assuming at least 13 points for them with two weapons compared to average 2,33 kills per 18 points berserkers seems also not a good deal.

Normally i think for drawing out berserkers more of a 10 man 40 pts unit, and that will rarely survive two berserkers with enough man to rally. You may take more but thats also more points. And in the end you have always the problem that you are the one that need to manage to get this skirmishers near the viking battle line only to get one of your "redirecting" units killed. So if all works well the berserkers might be not worth their points, but before this happens the viking has still the advantage of some saftey from your heavy units and that some of your skirmishers are bound. If things work not well you have a big problem.

[allen.ness]

Okay, you get a point there . But on the other hand, these skirmishers will normaly get a panic check (at LD 5 or so) and should be then often below 5 models. Also, other skirmishers might get panic too.

I don't have my rule book in front of me, but I didn't think skirmishers cause panic in other units, even other skirmisher units?

Allen

[Guy]

I don't have my rule book in front of me, but I didn't think skirmishers cause panic in other units, even other skirmisher units?

I think Goltron's referring to friends fleeing within 4". You're quite right, it'd only affect other skirmish units and only those who didn't outnumber then 2 to 1. As units under 5 are removed as a rule, not much to worry about.

Not a lot the Viking player can do about cheap throwaway skirmishers; as the Berserks are released at the beginning of the turn (even before charges), all the enemy skirmishers have to do is go trotting up to the berserks and friendly skirmish line or no, the berserks will get loose. Better to spend your points elsewhere.

Guy

[Goltron]

Sorry, but thats simply not true.

1. Charge the Berserker only if they have a line of sight.

2. Have your own skirmishers deployed in front of the hirdmen a free 4" move.

3. Is no need for the hirdmen to run to close behind the skirmishers.

So i dont see where the enemies skirmishers can just run straight ahead and draw all the berserkers out. If you run some units of pirates/hirdmen on front of your main forces you can beat down enemie skirmishers if they come to close (and no one likes skirmishers causing panic in 12" to other skirmishers), if the enemie comes with something around that will beat your own elite skirmishers you have good targets for your berserkers.

I will not say that this makes the vikings to good or something like this, but i just think that the berserkers are far to good for their points. And their rules are a bit to crazy for WAB...

[Justin]

2. Have your own skirmishers deployed in front of the hirdmen a free 4" move.

Of course skirmishers do not block line of sight, just shooting through them.