(early) Dumnonia - 1000 pts.

[Iggy Pop-Barker]

Hello, just looking for any suggestions for my 1000 point force. British and Welsh kingdoms list.

Tiern - Army General upgrade, light armour, Fearsome Blow, Veteran.

14x Teulu, Light armour, LSM - 253
24x Combrogi, LSM, throwing spears - 190
8x Combrogi, mounted on horses, Musician -133
10x Pagenses, slings
10x Pagenses, shortbows

Tosiech, Light Armour - 53

29x Ceithern, LSM - 160

1002 points (Tosiech might have to go nude).

I see mobility as being my biggest advantage here, with the skirmishers and cavalry march blocking and flank threatening as much as possible whilst trying to isolate infantry blocks. I'm also considering losing the Teulu's light armour in favour of more models, as a turn of lucky shooting dice could really do for them.

Any suggestions? Perhaps another character or ASB? More, smaller blocks?

Many thanks!

[GuitarheroAndy]

Shortbows are a waste of time...I'd use javelins, as you can do a lot of damage with them (no -1 to hit for moving plus shortbows get -1 to hit at ranges over 8" anyway)
In a 1000pt army, I field foot troops in 15s 18s or 21s, esp if using the Welsh lists where they are light infantry - see below a 1000pt Welsh list I used last July at Hot Lead at Gripping Beast HQ...Welsh characters fought in the Teulu, the Saxon character joined his Duguth mates...

1 Arawn Ap Cynfarch:Tiern
Sword, Javelins, Light Armour, Shield, Throwing Spear,
Special Rules: Army General, (Veteran; Hail of Blows)

1 Rhun Ap Urien: Uchelwyr:
Sword, Light Armour, Javelins, Shield, Throwing Spear,
Special Rules: Army Standard

13 Teulu
Sword, Light Armour, Javelins, Shield, Throwing Spear, Full Command
Special Rules: Warband 1 and 2; Run For The Woods; Light Infantry

8 Mounted Combrogi
Hand Weapon, Javelins, Shield, Throwing Spear, Horse, Leader, Musician
Special Rules: Light Cavalry; Run For The Woods;

15 Combrogi:
Javelins, Shield, Throwing Spear, Full Command
Special Rules: Light Infantry; Warband 1 and 2; Run For The Woods

9 Pagenses
Sling
Special Rules: Skirmishers; Concealment

8 Pagenses
javelins
Special Rules: Skirmishers; Concealment

Allies

1 Theoderic: Allied Saxon Thegn
Sword, Light Armour, Javelins, Saxon Buckler, Throwing Spear

17 Allied Saxon Duguth
Hand Weapon; Javelins, Saxon Buckler, Throwing Spear, Full Command
Special Rules: Light Infantry; Warband 1 and 2;

It worked ok...didn't win big, but didn't get utterly trashed... Then again, it was playing in unbalanced scenarios against 1500pt armies, so how it'd work against another 1000pt army in a straight scrap (even the scenarios from the AoArt book), I'm not sure...The extra character (ASB) is helpful regardless and your opponent wil probably squeeze one into his army...
Best of luck with whatever you choose. Best advice I can give really is to play a few games with your army however you initially choose it and see how it fares...

Have fun
Andy

[Pendraig]

Shortbows are a waste of time...I'd use javelins, as you can do a lot of damage with them (no -1 to hit for moving plus shortbows get -1 to hit at ranges over 8" anyway)

I would like to ask if you could go more into detail on this. I am interested in your perspective, due to the fact I am building the Strathclyde (Ystradclud) Army around 540-612 AD. Also pre-580 do you think I can get away with using the british list ?

[Matt-J2]

He means that game-wise, shortbows tend to be a pretty poor choice. Slings get better range(and so have a further short range) and the double fire, javelins have shorter range but no penalties for moving or range. Though while javs have no range penalty, they can never fire farther than 8".

While I agree with the idea that in game javs are a better choice, I disagree with all of them being shortbows in the first place, but that's a different issue.

[GuitarheroAndy]

Matt is right about the mechanics of it. You only tend to get one good lot of shooting in with most skirmishers so at least with javelins, that's always hitting on 4+ against formed troops, even when moving...shortbows would be 5+ at over 8" range, 6 if you moved as well. Slings are good too, as he says. At 1500pts I field 9 or 10 javelinmen and the same number of slingers...

Personally, I do agree that bows in AoArt should be shortbows, because the bow wasn't really a weapon of war among the Britons or their enemies in this period, so most bows would be used for hunting and would be shortbows. They wouldn't have the range or penetration of the composite bows used by the earlier Romans and all those eastern armies...in my opinion, of course.

In fact, in all probability, in most smal warbands, there would be professional warriors only, so the chance of getting any 'skirmishers' in there at all is remote, as Steve and James say several times in the book. However, in WAB, we do like our skirmishers...

[GuitarheroAndy]

Also pre-580 do you think I can get away with using the british list ?

You can get away with whatever you like...I'd have no problem with you playing it that way if you were gaming against me.

Personally, I always think that, for anything after about 550AD, I'd be using Northern Welsh (Mtd Raider for free...yippee!!!) and that always feels 'right' to me for the armies of Gododdin/Strathclyde. I always view the British Kingdom list as a late 5th/early 6th century variant, usually the sort of force that has evolved from the last Roman limitanei garrisons to become the warband of a 'warlord' or a king e.g. the warbands of Rheged emerging from the final Roman garrisons on Hadrian's wall. Again, that's just my take on it.

The great thing about this era is that so much is uncertain...one can do with it whatever one likes and no-body else can really be all 'wargame snob' about what one does...it's great!!!

Age of Arthur is my favourite book, favourite period...I'm sure you'll enjoy it once you build your armies and get gaming. Don't let those Picts or Saxons win!!!

[Pendraig]

Matt is right about the mechanics of it. You only tend to get one good lot of shooting in with most skirmishers so at least with javelins, that's always hitting on 4+ against formed troops, even when moving...shortbows would be 5+ at over 8" range, 6 if you moved as well. Slings are good too, as he says. At 1500pts I field 9 or 10 javelinmen and the same number of slingers...

Personally, I do agree that bows in AoArt should be shortbows, because the bow wasn't really a weapon of war among the Britons or their enemies in this period, so most bows would be used for hunting and would be shortbows. They wouldn't have the range or penetration of the composite bows used by the earlier Romans and all those eastern armies...in my opinion, of course.

In fact, in all probability, in most smal warbands, there would be professional warriors only, so the chance of getting any 'skirmishers' in there at all is remote, as Steve and James say several times in the book. However, in WAB, we do like our skirmishers...

I am an Archer myself ..... I am having a hard time with the grasping this rule, I agree they are the "Brythonic/welsh " shortbows what I know is they are good for snap shooting/hunting 15-25 yards in the brush or woods. with a draw at about 50lbs... penetration power I have nothing to quantify it with. but rate of fire would be compensating ...eventually massed volley will cause casualties....

As far as massed archers unless it is a Romano-British unit I would agree they skirmish at best. Defeating charging massed horse is a likely epic failure.

I think I am going to do a few tests....

[GuitarheroAndy]

Massed volleys would cause casualties, but only if the archers are skilled enough to fire massed volleys (which they weren't really if they were just the peasants as per the army lists - volley fire needs training, I believe) and if the enemy are daft enough to stand off and be shot at (which they probably weren't either...

[Pendraig]

Also pre-580 do you think I can get away with using the british list ?

You can get away with whatever you like...I'd have no problem with you playing it that way if you were gaming against me.

Personally, I always think that, for anything after about 550AD, I'd be using Northern Welsh (Mtd Raider for free...yippee!!!) and that always feels 'right' to me for the armies of Gododdin/Strathclyde. I always view the British Kingdom list as a late 5th/early 6th century variant, usually the sort of force that has evolved from the last Roman limitanei garrisons to become the warband of a 'warlord' or a king e.g. the warbands of Rheged emerging from the final Roman garrisons on Hadrian's wall. Again, that's just my take on it.

The great thing about this era is that so much is uncertain...one can do with it whatever one likes and no-body else can really be all 'wargame snob' about what one does...it's great!!!

Age of Arthur is my favourite book, favourite period...I'm sure you'll enjoy it once you build your armies and get gaming. Don't let those Picts or Saxons win!!!

Andy,

It was when I stumbled across your blog that I became interested in the WAB AoA... I shared with my father and we jumped in with both feet... gripping beast loves us now ( both ordered 1500 point armies off the bat). My inspiration was the Y Gododdin Poem, where as he is inspired by the Sub-Roman angle... We have a WH fantasy player who is going to build a Anglo-Saxon force.

Best wishes to you ,
Vaughan

[Matt-J2]

Personally, I do agree that bows in AoArt should be shortbows, because the bow wasn't really a weapon of war among the Britons or their enemies in this period, so most bows would be used for hunting and would be shortbows. They wouldn't have the range or penetration of the composite bows used by the earlier Romans and all those eastern armies...in my opinion, of course.

Well, there's a lot of detail that can be argued there, but it's rather pointless in an abstracted game like WAB. At any rate, I disagree on the issue of naming convention, rather than stats. Just a personal peeve, but I wish they'd name them by power level, such as 'weak, average, strong', or something of the sort. I'm in the process right now of seasoning wood to build a bow that will be nearly 6' long, but won't be a longbow, and aiming for a draw weight of 60lbs, rather than 90+.
Basically, I'm being anal for no constructive reason whatsoever, since I think the function in game is about right.

In fact, in all probability, in most smal warbands, there would be professional warriors only, so the chance of getting any 'skirmishers' in there at all is remote, as Steve and James say several times in the book. However, in WAB, we do like our skirmishers...

Maybe so.

[Pendraig]

LOL now I am spending $110.00 on a hand made welsh shortbow to try this theory out.

I do have an additional question has anyone used Pagenes with shortbows in a concealed ambush or as a supporting rear rank for Combrogi or a Teulu in contact? If you have could you share your observations?

Presently I am reading the Missile Weapons rules again.... I am trying to grasp the essence of using bow armed troops.... slings just don't hold my imagination to well.

[Goltron]

Concealment is a nice abillity, however javelins are even more the best weapon for those troops as you are closer to the enemie . Slings are also usefull for double shoot if the enemie advances. Hopefully in WAB 2.0 the shortbow will be of more use, i think swapping maximum range with slings would be just right.

[Pendraig]

Yeah I am more likely to knock my self out with a sling or a neighbors window than with a bow ... do you think WAB 2 is going to address this issue... Also the rate of fire I am just not in complete agreement with.

[GuitarheroAndy]

LOL now I am spending $110.00 on a hand made welsh shortbow to try this theory out.

I do have an additional question has anyone used Pagenes with shortbows in a concealed ambush or as a supporting rear rank for Combrogi or a Teulu in contact? If you have could you share your observations?

Presently I am reading the Missile Weapons rules again.... I am trying to grasp the essence of using bow armed troops.... slings just don't hold my imagination to well.

You can't use archers in a rear rank of spearmen in AoArt lists. In fact, even in those army books where you can have rear ranks of archers, they can't shoot when the unit is in combat. So the notion of 'supporting' the fronk ranks is not actually viable under the rules.

Also, you are right...double shots for slings at close range is daft...silly idea and no idea why it ever got used!

[Goltron]

silly idea and no idea why it ever got used

Cause they used the same rules as in WHFB .

[GuitarheroAndy]

Really? I didn't even know slings were in WFB at that time - which army had slings in WFB? Not that it matters, but I'm curious, as I used to play it back then when WAB was first released and I'd never even noticed them in it...

[Leondegrande]

Skaven slaves for instance
Jep, it was already in the 5th edition WFB.

Cheers
Olaf

[GuitarheroAndy]

Aaaahhh Ok, Skaven... Nobody I gamed with back then played Skaven, so that explains my ignorance! Thank you Olaf!!