British-Welsh Army Lists & Tips

[Pendraig]

Well I am sure a few of you are noticing my interest in Strathclyde Army.... I am still waiting on the gripping beast order to arrive. I have picked apart the posts on the threads and read the blogs of of a few. Not that there is slim pickings, but I have a few unanswered questions lingering in my mind. It is my hope by putting them forward that I may gain some insight or satisfaction in the replies.

1. MOUNTED ELEMENTS: I have read the "Wargaming Tactics" for the British/Welsh ( why not just say brythonic?) Armies they recommend 7-10 figs a unit.... Does that seem to be the magic number? Is there an advantage to having say a 12 figuire unit in a 1500-2000 point army? Also A character being attached to either Combrogi or Teulu seems an obvious choice, but is a necessity? Also I concede the mounted raider advantage, but if I were to give a Knight Commander to a character leading a buffed up Mounted Teulu, would that be just as effective? ( would it also be a warband killer?) Lastly what about attaching the king and standard bearer to such a unit?

2. Terrain and deployment: Just how effective is run to the woods? I can see the concealment ( ie ambush) being key, but is a one shot affair?

3. The Army builder software includes Leaders, Musicians and standards for Pagenses but it isn't mentioned in the rule book. It that a software error or misprint?

4. On page 84 the top color plate shows Combrogi with an delightful color scheme. the pale kakhi or off white shirts .... can anyone point me in an direction to the available dyes.... I mean freaky purple may not be on the palate but for the wargme snobs ... I have picked "woadblue" and an "off white" as the baseline for my house hold troops (Teulu), but I am looking for some other inspirations. ( FYI Andy I have practically saved all your photos for reference).

5. The change form the Early British Kingdoms list on page 37 in Special rules the have the "Heavy Infantry" rule , yet in the following lists they don't I grasp that run to the woods shows a change in fighting doctrine... Also the thrusting spear appears only with the kingdoms of the west?

I hope you are patient with me ... and thank you for your attention.
Vaughan

PS scrap the thrusting spear question i found the answer on page 37.

[GuitarheroAndy]

Well Vaughn, as most people who game with me know, I usually lose, so all my tactical advice is taken at your own risk...but here goes!!

For Mounted Teulu, I field 10 (or occasionally 12) , with full command and the Rex and his Army standard are always in the unit so you get 12 (or 14) mounted models. They give the ujnit a real boost and, where else would you want them? Where else would a king be but with his bodyguard?? Foot combrogi need a character to boost their leadership, especially if fleeing, as without a rank bonus, their leadership is 5!!!!

Mounted raider is brilliant for later Welsh...you can use it to drag enemy troops to where YOU want to charge them... I feel it really suits the raiding style of 7th century warfare in the North...It also annoys the hell out of your opponent!!

Knight commander represents mainland European Gothic/Sarmatian/late Roman heavy cavalry tactics, not the sort of warfare used by the later Welsh (BTW, Welsh comes from a Saxon word 'Wealas' meaning 'foreigner', I think...) I occasionally use it for Romano British commanipulares or British Kingdoms armies if I'm feeling a bit fanciful and think I'm fielding Arthur's army as per most of the novels set in the Dark Ages!!!!

Mtd Combogi I use in a unit of at least 9, as this means you can lose 2 to a turn of shooting and not take a panic test. In my Northern Welsh army I put a tiern with them and give him Mtd raider too.

Run for the woods is really good! I have rescued many a fleeing combrogi unit by successfully re-rolling panic dice in such a situation!! Concealment is handy too...especially if you can get on the enemy flank or even his flank/rear if he's careless with deployment!

Pagenses are peasant skirmishers. They would have no leaders, musicians or standards - the software is wrong!

You have already got all my photos so you know my colour schemes - I use Foundry colours. Night Sky, Storm Green, Drab, Rawhide, all good colours. For red, Madder red is best and I use Yellow Ochre for the yellow-gold clothing. Trousers are vaious shades of Foundry Browns.

British Kingdoms Welsh are heavy inantry - the last legacy of Rome, I suppose... The later Welsh were fighting in the highlands of the North and in Wales, so would probably have been light infantry and that's also why they have Run For The Woods. . That's how I read it anyway...

The Welsh aren't that easy to play, but they are fun!!!

I hope that helps you. Any more questions, feel free to ask...

Cheers
Andy

[Pendraig]

I have a feeling the 2 rank light infantry bonus takes a pounding vs the three rank saxons or others.... Terrain and MOUSE MOSS principals are critical. The thrusting spears of the heavier opponents and the Picti/Scots re-roll trait must be frustrating.

I have on my own discovered the secondary leadership is needed on the ground ... thanks for confirming it. I think your observation about the Mounted Raider advantage with Mounted Combrogi is key....

Your army is a Rheged army if I am correct .... Uriens is your rex? Have you played both periods British and later welsh? ( I prefer Brythonic.... bristling at being called a foreigner in my own land) - getting into character.

I'd like to talk with you more .... my first opponent to go up against is dear old dad and his Sub-Roman Civitias....

Vaughan

[GuitarheroAndy]

Most Saxon players I've met play early kingdoms, which are light infantry also.

The Pict/Scots may have re-rolls, but so do your mtd Teulu and combrogi in the first round of every combat. Your foot combrogi fight in 2 ranks in the first round of each combat, so that balances out the Picts/Scots mixed weapons.

If using light infantry against Romano-British, avoid charging his shieldwall from the front. Manoeuvre to his flanks. Your Teulu are better than his commanipulares and your characters are better as well...your infantry move faster as well. If he moves to match your manoeuvres, he's no longer in shieldwall and is easier meat, especially if he's fielding Pedyt!! Don't forget that all your troops are cheaper than his AND have javelins...your infantry can always break into skirmish formation and run out of harm's way if need be...

I do tend to field Rheged's army with Urien as my Rex when playing Northern Welsh. It feels 'right' to do so!! I also play British kingdoms and Romano-British. I have most success with Northern Welsh, despite the light infantry, as I'm quite good with light cavalry...well, 'quite good' probably doesn't cut it...I'm not 'as bad' when using light cavalry!!

Feel free to PM me if you have further questions specific to my stuff that other folk couldn't answer...
Andy

[Goltron]

...[quote="Pendraig"]Well I am sure a few of you are noticing my interest in Strathclyde Army.... I am still waiting on the gripping beast order to arrive. I have picked apart the posts on the threads and read the blogs of of a few. Not that there is slim pickings, but I have a few unanswered questions lingering in my mind. It is my hope by putting them forward that I may gain some insight or satisfaction in the replies.

1. MOUNTED ELEMENTS: I have read the "Wargaming Tactics" for the British/Welsh ( why not just say brythonic?) Armies they recommend 7-10 figs a unit.... Does that seem to be the magic number? Is there an advantage to having say a 12 figuire unit in a 1500-2000 point army? Also A character being attached to either Combrogi or Teulu seems an obvious choice, but is a necessity? Also I concede the mounted raider advantage, but if I were to give a Knight Commander to a character leading a buffed up Mounted Teulu, would that be just as effective? ( would it also be a warband killer?) Lastly what about attaching the king and standard bearer to such a unit?

As you normaly get no rank bonus with your cavalry 12 are simply not necessary. If you want to field a unit of mounted teulu with the general (and maybe the ASB) more can be usefull tp prevent the enemie from FBIGO, but imho thats to expensive in most cases.

I don´t like knight commander. +1 ranks are nice, but with the teulu broader for more attacks is better. Also, a light cavalry unit with LD8, mounted raider and run for the woods is extremly usefull.../color]

2. Terrain and deployment: Just how effective is run to the woods? I can see the concealment ( ie ambush) being key, but is a one shot affair?

[color=#BF0000]Comcealement is more of a gimmick, it´s nice to harass the enemie early with javelins or slingshoots but normaly he´ll drive of your skirmishers with his own. Run for the woods is very usefull. Makes your skirmishers much more panic resistant and the welsh cavalry the best in the book. Also, make sure your units will be fleeing through difficult terrain.

3. The Army builder software includes Leaders, Musicians and standards for Pagenses but it isn't mentioned in the rule book. It that a software error or misprint?

As stated above. They also don´t need any command.

[andy]

I usually play a welsh army - and I have found for small forces fo 1000pts combrogi in units of 15 is more than enough - as Andy mentions they are cheap, they move at 5, they have javelins and can break into skirmish order - being on the receiving end of 15 javelins in this period is nearly as bad as the biblical period as there is so little armour about - 5 up is a darned good save in this period!

When I move to 1500ap I tend to go with 18 models a unit - still allows decent flexibility with the frontage vs movement and it give a bit more fighting power...

Agree on comments with Mounted combrogi - they are most useful - apart from their relatively slow movement comapred to other mounted with decent horses...

Teulu - these are in my view a difficult choice, you gotta have them cos they look so cool (GB figures) - but you also need them to take on the quality units of the opponent - If foot I tend towards 15 models - 18 if I can do the points - but also usually put a character or two in them for added muscle...

Back to comrogi - I also tend to add in an Uchelwyr if I can in each unit - as if the comrogi do run then its quite hard to rally them - an Uchelwyr helps with teh leadership when running or the ranks started to get thinned out a bit...

Use teh concelment rule - having a bunch of skirmishers pop up in unexpected places at the start of teh game is most frustraing to the emenies well laid battle plans - javelins is teh way to go with these as well in my books as no penalty for moving and throwing...

just my 2c worth.

Andy

[Goltron]

At 1500 Points i field usually combrogi units of 24. 8 wide they can beat heavy infantry in combat and you get 8 javelins to throw even when formed.

[Pendraig]

First off I would really like to express my gratitude for the time all of you have taken to respond to my queries. Your responses to steer me right will probably save some palm to forehead time.

Given the period of time and the "mystical/magical" references in the "historical" literature Does anyone incorporate and fantasy rules in some of their games... Merlin and or other druids ( my caveat is I have read the AoA book and it states that most kingdoms by the 5th century were cross kissers) ... John Boorman's Excalibur "the dragons Breath" or mist.... the Benard Cronwell's Warlord Trilogy subtle hints at magic. Guitarheroandy- I have read your blog about about the 12 treasures of britain... which sounds smashing ( sorry to sound chessy but it is a great idea)

In scanning the book I noticed the legendary rules in the back about Excalibur and the scabbard. I was wondering if anyone had a rule for a young Helen Mirriam dancing around naked throwing gold dust on my armor ... "no man made weapon may pierce this armor whilst you wear it".

Before I get to long winded and belabor the point. I am basically asking has anyone with these rules breached the heroic and magical quality into the rule system? I love how single challenge combat could influence future die rolls in on campaign.

Also I am very interested in doing a Bretwalda/Pendragon campaign, referencing the campaign rules in the WAB as well as embracing some of the neat dynamics of a DBA Set called Age of Arthur (ironic).

Thanks for your attention and or indulgence. Also I am still waiting for my package of goddies from gripping beast, yet while I do so I am planning my next order. Sigh... guess I will have to finish those Hessians today.

[andy]

At 1500 Points i field usually combrogi units of 24. 8 wide they can beat heavy infantry in combat and you get 8 javelins to throw even when formed.

Agreed - 24 with 8 frontage is good for taking on HI, but I found by dropping of 6 figures I could field one more unit - with their 5 movement I found this trade off to be more advantageous as I usually had 1 or two units extra that I coudl get aropund teh flanks with...- especially when lots of difficult ground around where they can break into skirmish and move quickly and then reform...

Andy

[Pendraig]

At 1500 Points i field usually combrogi units of 24. 8 wide they can beat heavy infantry in combat and you get 8 javelins to throw even when formed.

Agreed - 24 with 8 frontage is good for taking on HI, but I found by dropping of 6 figures I could field one more unit - with their 5 movement I found this trade off to be more advantageous as I usually had 1 or two units extra that I coudl get aropund teh flanks with...- especially when lots of difficult ground around where they can break into skirmish and move quickly and then reform...

Andy

Andy do you advocate smaller manuever elements for the tactical advantage of fixing and then turning the flank. Could you compromise and have one large Combrogi ( 24) and then field smaller ME's of Combrogi of 18 like your said? Or do they all have to be the same size?

[GuitarheroAndy]

I have avoided any reference to magic, myself. However, I have written a scenario called 'Drustan and Essylt' which is obviously and shamelessly based on the legend, but put into historical context!!

As you've read my blog, you'll know all about my Bretwalda campaign. The scenario was part of that... I'd be glad to share the Bretwalda stuff with you if you want it. I tweaked the army lists a bit from the main book and adapted the scenarios for the smaller army lists we played with. If you are interested, I can email you all the files (although be warned..the Bretwalda handbook and ensuing poetry booklet written by the players are large files...)

I know your question about unit sizes was aimed at the other Andy (I've played against his Welsh army - a tough nut to crack!!) but for what it's worth, I use different size units in some of my lists. It can be a good tactic. I usually use 24 as the basis for my infantry units, but field 21, 18 or 15 as necessary in a Northern Welsh army depending on how I'm fielding it and for which scenario, etc...

Oh, by the way, I always pay extra points to mount my combrogi on horses, not ponies...

And I must say that all this talk of Arthurian stuff has made me go back and get more figures out to paint, so thank you

[Pendraig]

I have avoided any reference to magic, myself. However, I have written a scenario called 'Drustan and Essylt' which is obviously and shamelessly based on the legend, but put into historical context!!

As you've read my blog, you'll know all about my Bretwalda campaign. The scenario was part of that... I'd be glad to share the Bretwalda stuff with you if you want it. I tweaked the army lists a bit from the main book and adapted the scenarios for the smaller army lists we played with. If you are interested, I can email you all the files (although be warned..the Bretwalda handbook and ensuing poetry booklet written by the players are large files...)

I know your question about unit sizes was aimed at the other Andy (I've played against his Welsh army - a tough nut to crack!!) but for what it's worth, I use different size units in some of my lists. It can be a good tactic. I usually use 24 as the basis for my infantry units, but field 21, 18 or 15 as necessary in a Northern Welsh army depending on how I'm fielding it and for which scenario, etc...

Oh, by the way, I always pay extra points to mount my combrogi on horses, not ponies...

And I must say that all this talk of Arthurian stuff has made me go back and get more figures out to paint, so thank you

You think that is bad I have been eye-balling the postman for my GB package.... and in the mean time reading Brythonic/Welsh Poetry for my command pool I have come up with:

Rhydderch Hael ap Tudwal, Rex Ystradclud
Mordaf Hael ap Seruan, Uchelwyr
Elidir Mwynfawr, Teirn Hen Ogledd (later murdered by another welshman, King Rhun Hir ap Maelgwn of Gwynedd)
Clydno Eiddin, Tiern Din Edyin ( his son Cyno had a thing for Morvydd, daughter of Urien Rhegedhad)
Nudd Hael ap Senyllt, Ucheclwyr
Aneirin,Bard
Cyndeyrn Garthwys, priest/bishop ( I couldn't call him mungo... I would get to many Blazing Saddles jokes about Mongo)

I have uncovered
Languoreth, his queen rumored to be unfatithful
Angharad Ton Velen (Tawy waves- Blond curly hair), his daughter

Rhydderch’s horse Rudlwyt, "Dun-Grey, (his horse has a name humm .... what could that mean in terms of the game lol )
Dyrnwyn , White Hilt, (awesome another flight of fantasy rules)

Sadly my AWI/SYW miniatures are suffering neglect ( I am retired at 38 not much to do). I will PM you my email Andy I would like your bretwalda campaign.

[Pendraig]

I have avoided any reference to magic, myself. However, I have written a scenario called 'Drustan and Essylt' which is obviously and shamelessly based on the legend, but put into historical context!!

As you've read my blog, you'll know all about my Bretwalda campaign. The scenario was part of that... I'd be glad to share the Bretwalda stuff with you if you want it. I tweaked the army lists a bit from the main book and adapted the scenarios for the smaller army lists we played with. If you are interested, I can email you all the files (although be warned..the Bretwalda handbook and ensuing poetry booklet written by the players are large files...)
Thanx

I know your question about unit sizes was aimed at the other Andy (I've played against his Welsh army - a tough nut to crack!!) but for what it's worth, I use different size units in some of my lists. It can be a good tactic. I usually use 24 as the basis for my infantry units, but field 21, 18 or 15 as necessary in a Northern Welsh army depending on how I'm fielding it and for which scenario, etc...
Not to create a pun here but I notice a series of triads ... three ranks apparently is key

Oh, by the way, I always pay extra points to mount my combrogi on horses, not ponies...
I hear you loud and clear there

And I must say that all this talk of Arthurian stuff has made me go back and get more figures out to paint, so thank you

My wife does go to the UK (Crawley?) twice a year for work maybe one day we will meet on the field of static grass and see who comes out victorious.

[GuitarheroAndy]

That'd be great if we could manage it! A true battle for the Northlands!!!

Check your email...I've sent you the files and a link to download the poetry booklet...

have a great weekend

Andy

[Pendraig]

You too and thank you very much. Have a good evening and weekend.
Vaughan

[andy]

At 1500 Points i field usually combrogi units of 24. 8 wide they can beat heavy infantry in combat and you get 8 javelins to throw even when formed.

Agreed - 24 with 8 frontage is good for taking on HI, but I found by dropping of 6 figures I could field one more unit - with their 5 movement I found this trade off to be more advantageous as I usually had 1 or two units extra that I coudl get aropund teh flanks with...- especially when lots of difficult ground around where they can break into skirmish and move quickly and then reform...

Andy

Andy do you advocate smaller manuever elements for the tactical advantage of fixing and then turning the flank. Could you compromise and have one large Combrogi ( 24) and then field smaller ME's of Combrogi of 18 like your said? Or do they all have to be the same size?

Yes - smaller units 15s or 18s for the movement benefit - the small frontage allows more rapid wheels =- you can have whatever mix of unit sizes you like 1x15,1x18,3x24,2x21 etc no restriction othe rthan the army list composition and points - I tend to let the Teulu and one unit of Combrogi (with adecent character in them each) take on the frontal duties while trying to get the remainder in more advantageous positions - I also use the Mtd combrogi on the flanks - but if I recall in the welsh list I use we cannot have horses and are limited to ponies - but with throwing spear and a decent character in them they are still good unit - 9 Combrogi plus character - is minimum in my books.

Regards
Andy

[Goltron]

Agreed - 24 with 8 frontage is good for taking on HI, but I found by dropping of 6 figures I could field one more unit - with their 5 movement I found this trade off to be more advantageous as I usually had 1 or two units extra that I coudl get aropund teh flanks with...- especially when lots of difficult ground around where they can break into skirmish and move quickly and then reform...

Problem with 18 drawn 6 wide is imho that you can take only 2 casualties to retain the +2 ranks. With 24 8 wide you can take 4. 8 wide has it´s disadvantages as you have long wheel distances (but who needs to do that? Just set up your warriors so that they have to just run straight forward! ) and the enemie can counter it by taking a formation only 5 or even 4 wide. On the other hand, you can setup also 7 or 6 wide and then have enough men to retain the ranks very long.

However, i use always mixed units strenghts: Say two units of 24 for the centre, two of 16 for the flanks and two of 10 set up as skirmishers.

I really like to field the teulu mounted. With the army general, a bard and mounted raider and finest horses everyone will hate that unit .

[James Morris]

Looks like most of the queries have been replied to with lots of detail!

'Brythonic' feels like very much a language term, whereas 'Britons' and 'Welsh' is what the people were referred to as (the latter admittedly by the Saxons!) You can call them what you like, but it is important to remember that the AoA book is a wargaming resource aimed at making this period accessible to the average gamer.

Andy Hawes has pretty much covered the reasons for the change from British Kingdoms heavy infantry to 'Welsh' light infantry. These are purely game mechanics reflecting infantry warbands fighting in (perhaps) a Romano-British 'heavy infantry' tradition, as opposed to lighter infantry fighting in a more dispersed formation. We don't have any evidence to pin down tactics to either particular style in this period, so both options are offered, with a suggestion that the light infantry may better reflect the Welsh of the later period. It's entirely up to you to decide which style suits your interpretation of history and gaming style. (The Saxon list has similar options for LI or heavy troops). There's nothing wrong with using the British Kingdoms list for later armies if that fits your personal idea of what your army should be like.

One of the paradoxes of gaming this period is that we have very little hard evidence of the details of warfare, but you will get a more enjoyable game by including differences in equipment, fighting styles and leadership in your army lists. I would hope you would find that there are a lot of choices in the AoA lists to personalise your army to your taste, without making the armies bland by simply saying that 'we have no evidence so anything goes'.

Good luck with your project.

[Pendraig]

I am going to keep your example in mind .... I have alot to tryout with the first few battles I play. By the way I love Munich. I was stationed in Italy as a fallschirmjager and spent many of my weekends in Bayern.

Agreed - 24 with 8 frontage is good for taking on HI, but I found by dropping of 6 figures I could field one more unit - with their 5 movement I found this trade off to be more advantageous as I usually had 1 or two units extra that I coudl get aropund teh flanks with...- especially when lots of difficult ground around where they can break into skirmish and move quickly and then reform...

Problem with 18 drawn 6 wide is imho that you can take only 2 casualties to retain the +2 ranks. With 24 8 wide you can take 4. 8 wide has it´s disadvantages as you have long wheel distances (but who needs to do that? Just set up your warriors so that they have to just run straight forward! ) and the enemie can counter it by taking a formation only 5 or even 4 wide. On the other hand, you can setup also 7 or 6 wide and then have enough men to retain the ranks very long.

However, i use always mixed units strenghts: Say two units of 24 for the centre, two of 16 for the flanks and two of 10 set up as skirmishers.

I really like to field the teulu mounted. With the army general, a bard and mounted raider and finest horses everyone will hate that unit .

[Pendraig]

Looks like most of the queries have been replied to with lots of detail!

'Brythonic' feels like very much a language term, whereas 'Britons' and 'Welsh' is what the people were referred to as (the latter admittedly by the Saxons!) You can call them what you like, but it is important to remember that the AoA book is a wargaming resource aimed at making this period accessible to the average gamer.

Andy Hawes has pretty much covered the reasons for the change from British Kingdoms heavy infantry to 'Welsh' light infantry. These are purely game mechanics reflecting infantry warbands fighting in (perhaps) a Romano-British 'heavy infantry' tradition, as opposed to lighter infantry fighting in a more dispersed formation. We don't have any evidence to pin down tactics to either particular style in this period, so both options are offered, with a suggestion that the light infantry may better reflect the Welsh of the later period. It's entirely up to you to decide which style suits your interpretation of history and gaming style. (The Saxon list has similar options for LI or heavy troops). There's nothing wrong with using the British Kingdoms list for later armies if that fits your personal idea of what your army should be like.

One of the paradoxes of gaming this period is that we have very little hard evidence of the details of warfare, but you will get a more enjoyable game by including differences in equipment, fighting styles and leadership in your army lists. I would hope you would find that there are a lot of choices in the AoA lists to personalise your army to your taste, without making the armies bland by simply saying that 'we have no evidence so anything goes'.

Good luck with your project.

Thank you for the encouragement. I have been thoroughly engaged by not only the rulebook but by the discussion that has followed. I hope you don't have the impression that I am bucking the system here. When I get into something I have a bad habit of really getting into it. Yes Brythonic is a language term that I am now seeing used more frequently to describe the kingdoms of the era and tribes ethnically (I guess language could be considered defining). My use of the term I hope hasn't put anyone out?

You brought up the British Kingdoms list ( sorry to pick your brain) but another member posted 577 AD is a good date to bench mark the fall of the lowlands... would you venture your own opinion?
Also I love the campaign system specifically the random generation of resources for provinces and the glory/veteran dynamics. I think they are a real stroke of brilliance.